Bethel Church’s Bill Johnson has written about why he thinks a Bible-believing Christian should support President-elect Donald Trump. He fails miserably. In this video I go through his list of things that he has “found” in the Bible that would defend the goodness of a Trump presidency, and points out why Johnson has an obvious bias for Trump that makes him twist the Scriptures like crazy. I deeply respect him and his charismatic ministry, but his political views are astonishingly off.
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If you stopped and listened to what the Holy Spirit was speaking through many of God’s prophets and also sought the Lord for yourself on your face it would. No one can be in a position of leadership unless God places him/her there.
So… Heil Hitler?
Is thar what the Holy Spirit is telling you?
Definitely not, and he tells me that Trump is an ungodly sinner who mainly just cares about his own wealth and fame. If we assume that all political leaders are endorsed by God, then we have to celebrate the evils of cruel dictators.
We don’t celebrate evil dictators but we must remember what Jesus said to Pilate which was that the only reason he had authority over Him is because it was given to him from above.
So if I understand you correctly what you are saying is that all those in the prophetic community who have sought the Lord concerning Donald Trump are wrong and you alone stand as the only one who hears the Holy Spirit.
Truly scary attitude Tony and very far out from an evangelical biblical perspective. Have you forgotten that the prophets are also a part of our holy scripture, did they accept evil or misled leaders ? I´m also old enoght to have engaged in supporting Christians under the soviet rule, do you say they died in vane when they somtimes lost their Lifes in the struggle for both religious but also political freedom. Would you consider Daesh/ISIL as sent from God ? Are the Christians trying to stop them really on the wrong side according to you ?? Donald Trump bilut his campaign on lies and fear, and has so far been cheered by dictators and despots all over the world. yesterday Neo-nazis in Europe claimed his victory as the beginng of their new era, Trump was the prefered chioce of Daes/IS, Sisi, Erdogan, Putin, Lukasjenka, Assad, Kim-young-Un,, and on it goes….. As thoose who kill, opress,torture and jail people including christians…As said´, the scripture is not a Lego where you add and excluce after personal preference. What makes you think Michael would be alone in refuting Trump ? As evagelicals we must know to “not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God” I John 4:1-21 is important works of thoose days.
Most relevant would be v20. “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar;”
So you are not on the majority side here, Evangelicals in general refute lying, sexual abuse and harassement, hate speach, opression, call for violence, disrespect for women and all other things connected to Trump and his team.
So the God that we all prayed to and asked for a leader who would change the direction of the country gave us instead an evil dictators as an answer to our prayers. Is that what you’re saying? You seem to forget those whom the Lord used in the bible who were pagan kings,i.e. Cyrus whom the Lord used to re-establish Jews to their homeland and re-establish the temple of the Lord.
That’s a horrible argument. Firstly, it assumes that we always get what we pray for. Secondly, Christians always pray for a good leader. So by your own standard Obama, Bill Clinton and Hitler must have been good leaders. Thirdly, if Christians think that Trump is good and pray that he should win they are simply deluded. Fourthly, of course God can use anyone but that again includes Hillary Clinton or Hitler – its not an argument for supporting or celebrating Trump.
My hope is in God alone. Whom He chooses to do His will is His business..He chose Cyrus, an ungodly ruler to accomplish His will calling him His servant. I don’t limit the Lord as to who He may or may not use. I pray for our leaders as commanded in Scripture. 1Ti 2:1 — 1Ti 2:4
Instructions about Worship
2 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone could be saved and to understand the truth. do not speak evil of my leaders is also commanded for us not to do.
Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
And again, EVERY ruler can be described as a modern Cyrus, not just Trump. The leftist party Syriza in Greece could be a Cyrus, Pol Pot could be a Cyrus. It’s not an argument for supporting or celebrating Trump.
Then I have to ask are you an evangelical or a pentecostal?
Pol Pot did not order Christians to rebuild churches did he?
By the way I too am old enough to remember the persecution of Christians in the former Soviet Union.
Are you pentecostal,i.e., believing in the gifts of the Spirit, particularly prophesy, or are you a cessassationist?
I´m sorry Tony but your argument would then be just as valid for Daesh/ISIL or the former soviet. I´m glad you remember thoose day´s, but where you there? You say they should have embraced their rulers and criticism was wrong, was it alos wrong to smuggle bibles, was it wrong to break the law and pray and praise in secrecy ? I was there, and sorry, you don´t know what you talk about, your claim is just awful and ungodly. The last 2 years our In church has recived many christian refugees (the ones Trump denies a safe haven in US). Their experiences and stories are sometimes unbearable, still you say their task as christians was to bless and embrace the rule of Daesh/ISIL? Cessacionism means that you don´t believe in the presence of av active holy spirit today, how do you get that into evagelical christianity ? Tony, the Bible is instead clear that the holy spirit is present in todays church, but it also tells us to be careful and try the prophesys, to interprete the speak of tounges. You say that some evagelicals praying for a change now proves that Trump is sent by God. Many more christians prayed for a change before the Obamas election, does it mean that christians where obliged to not critizise Obamas presidency ? Jesus himselfes makes very clear that his kingdom is different from the earthly states (Matt 22:21, John 18:36). I´m sorry, but if you say that some christians stopped listening to what Trump says and sees him as a god sent ruler because they believe he i the answears to their prayers they have ignored the Bibles clear directives of listening and trying words and actions in the light of the holy scripture. And most of all mixed what is earthly own wishes, and the will of god.
No I say that people who have been on their faces before God and seeking His face and listening for HIS response instead of forming their own opinions. I’ve yet to see anyone on this thread say that they’ve spent time on their face before God seeking His face and His heart on the matter. What I have seen is people who judge by outward appearance and not by the heart which is how God judges.
Quite contrary I am clear that a minority of all Christians regulary praying for God to intervene mixed their own wishes and agendas with Trump, while the majority of christians who equally meet God hear the call from Matt 28 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age”.
you are in deep trouble if not the warning bell rings when your argument for supporting Trump would be equaly valid for Daesh/ISIL or former Soviet. And If the believed answear was to embrace an earthly leader who´s actions so clearly differentiates from a biblical standard. I´m sorry, but the gift of prophesy was not present in such a gathering.
We must know that what is not from God is all the time doing just this, trying to shut our ears to God and replace it with our own earthly agendas and priorities. You talk about being on your face before God, noone knows this better than the ones who have suffer from their belief in Christ, where praying and praising the Lord together might cost your life or freedom.Of course they would pray for their leaders mainly to come to their senses of for God to touch thier lifes. But never to embrace their political agendas. If you think God tells you that your task is to praise and support the lords of this world, I’m sad to say that you have not been listening very well…
Psa 75:6 — Psa 75:7
For no one on earth—from east or west,
or even from the wilderness—
should raise a defiant fist.
It is God alone who judges;
he decides who will rise and who will fall.
Do you believe that none can promote themselves but God in His sovereignty promotes one and demotes another?
Rom 13:1 — Rom 13:2
Respect for Authority
13 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.
Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Do you believe these as well? If so, then you must agree with the final scriptures as well. Not to do so is in effect that God is not Sovereign and in fact is inept at ruling over His creation which is basically showing that you have no fear of God. That for me is a frightening place to be.
Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
So, then we are back where we started! Please then just give a clear answear: Was Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoffer right to oppose Hitler? Are Christians under Daesh/ISIL right to oppose their rulers ? Was the christians in former soviet right to oppose the regime ? Yes or No is fine !!
Did God get off the throne at any of these times? Can you provide Biblical support for Christians opposing leaders they don’t like?
Should Jesus have opposed Pilate? Should Paul have opposed Caesar?
Exodus 1-18 is a quite well known story from the Bible. Can I now have my YES or NO please ?
They did not oppose Pharaoh. They feared God and were honored by God with families of their own. They did not go about trying to raise up a rebellion against an evil king. They addressed Pharaoh directly and only Him.
Now can I have my answer. Was Jesus wrong and Paul wrong for not opposing evil dictators?
OK I see, since i asked for a Yes or No, you are instead bombarding me with a barrage of question.
You will never give a Yes or No !!
BTW, you want to start over where we started to avoid giving a Yes or No. OK, a last round as you will contiue this for ever as long as I don´t retract my request for a Yes or No on my question.
Jesus was extremely clear that his kingdom is not of this world, but you talk about embracing the rulers of this world because some christians ignored the carefulness to test the spirits according to the holy bible. Most of the apostled actually died by the hand of the rulers of this world (Paul, Peter, Jacob, Stefanos etc…etc…). You say the Bible tells you to be silent to ungodly and corrupted leaders, as you obviously have forgotten the old testament. maybe Matt 14:3-11 and Mark 6:17-28 could ring a bell from the new.
OK, once again back where we started! Please then just give a clear answear: Was Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoffer right to oppose Hitler? Are Christians under Daesh/ISIL right to oppose their rulers ? Was the christians in former soviet right to oppose the regime ? YES or NO is fine !!
What is your take of the following scripture?
Rom 13:1 — Rom 13:2
Respect for Authority
13 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.
You mention Paul, Jacob, and Stefano. Can you show where these men opposed the governmental leaders which they were under.
You seem to forget people like Schindler who worked within the system of Nazi Germany employing thousands of Jewish children thus saving them from death camps. Was that an oversight on your part?
As for your reference to Matt 14:3-11 concerning Herod, we’re you aware that he was raised a Jew and therefore knew that what he was doing was unlawful. John called him on it because he was raised a Jew, however, he did not oppose his government nor the authority of Rome in so doing.
So again I ask. What is your take of Roman’s 13:1-2. Does God’s word provide exceptions to obeying it. Yes or no?
Tony, this is turning ridiculous….Instead of a simple YES or NO you continue to bombard me with a barrage of questions, and writing long dictionarys. Why are you so afraid ? Yes or No thanks !!
I could ask of you the same thing. Is there a time when it’s oK to disobey God’s word? Yes or no?
I could ask of you the same thing. Is there a time when it’s OK to disobey gods
Well you could say so if it was not for the very obvious fact that you have started to repeat the discussion over and over again since I asked you for a simple yes or no answear.
It´s quite obvious that you are doing everything you can to avoid my question and from that perspective it´s also quite obvious you don´s trust your own arguments.
So I think I´m done here, if you can´t find arguments that even convince yourself, why do you try to make me believe in them.
And, as our lord Jesus himself encouraged to break the law if the intention is to do good it seems your theological arguments also was built on loose sand Matt 12:1-8, You also try to argue that christians are obliged to kneel in front of the earthly lords, although It´s clear it would not be a biblical attitude, Acts 5:29.
So if a earthly lord or ruler is evil, or prevents you to do the good you are neither obliged to follow his word, or to respect his laws. So YES you should listen to the word of God, does it allow you to ignore earthly llords and laws? YES ! Are we done now ?
Can you then please try to come out of the closet you hide in ? …..Was Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoffer right to oppose Hitler? Are Christians under Daesh/ISIL right to oppose their rulers ? Was the christians in former soviet right to oppose the regime ? YES or NO is fine !!….
So Romans 13:1-2 is not Biblical according to you because it commands us to obey earthly lord’s
Is it OK to set aside God’s word and do whatever you want. Romans 13:1-2 is only a suggestion according to your interpretation and not a command to be followed. You say that I hide in a closet. I hide in the safety of the Word of God.
So again I ask. Is it permissible to disobey the word of God or not? Can you sight scripture where God commends anyone for disobeying His word? A simple yes or no will do.
Tony, after you have nearly written a new dictionary with evasive manouvers.
Don’t you miss a small part from your side …..can you guess….2 or 3 letters….no clue…….Matt 5:37….still no clue at all…???!!!
Matthew 5:37 is a part of the sermon on the Mount and has to do with swearing and taking oaths. This was not the conversation happening on this thread now was it.
And you still have no clue about what missing from your side ???
If you are referring to the existence of Scripture(s ) where it states that it’s permissible to disobey God’s word then yes I have no clue as I have never found such a scripture.
Tony, must be hard to not even trust your own arguments. You have nearly written a full book to avoid answearing since I asked you for a simple YES or NO answear.
Thanks for throwing your towel into the ring, and thanks for proving my point !
If by proving your point your stating that I’ve somehow said it is OK to disobey scripture then you live in a fantasy world of your own making.
Tit 3:1 — Tit 3:2
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
What’s your take on these verses. Commands to be obeyed or suggestions?
Is there a time when it is permissible to disobey God’s word. Yes or no?
Leaders shall be evaluated and judged. Your logic gives Nero, stalin and Hitler etc free reign. Your argument support them. Do not confuse the command to pray with its fulfillment, or the call to pacifism and honor towards leaders with acceptance and passivity.
Has God shown you President elects heart? This is the standard by which He chooses a leader. My argument does not support them. Can you show me in Scripture where any of God’s prophets stirred up rebellion against a ruler? For those of us who have been seeking the face of God and asking for a leader to turn the country around God answered our prayers. How else do you explain the win this man had when he was viewed as a joke by the media and only had a 10% chance of winning? Bad leaders do come into power there’s no denying that but that doesn’t mean that the Lord was taken unawares. All authority comes from God. These leaders bad or good rule because God allows it for HIS purposes. I am not God and therefore have no right to question Him. I do, however, have a responsibility to pray for the leaders that God allows to be in power.
Dude. Do you know that sometimes people choose their leader and God simply appoints the people choice. That’s when the bible says all leaders are from GOd(misquoted purposefully)
That’s not correct
Explain the meaning of the prophet Daniel’s discourse with king Nebuchadnezzar as quoted below
“Daniel 4:17
‘This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.’
The problem is that the leaders who support Trump are given so much attention on the internet and in the media. Those evangelical leaders who denounced Trump get barely a whisper. Just this week Skye Jethani actually denounced evangelicalism itself, and will no longer allow the term to be used to describe him. If I hadn’t been following his blog, I wouldn’t have heard of it.
In the Obama administration, women staffers came up with a strategy called “amplification” to make sure that their voices would be heard in important meetings. (http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/09/14/the-clever-strategy-obamas-women-staffers-came-up-with-to-make-sure-they-were-being-heard/)
Likewise, I think a good strategy for Christian bloggers and podcasters is to “amplify” those evangelical leaders who had the ethical courage to denounce Trump before, during and after the election. Rather than generating attention for Jerry Falwell or Bill Johnson, it would be better to channel our social media posts away from Trump supporters (effectively, preventing their voices from being heard) and to amplify the voices of those whose ethics are more Christ-like.
From now on, I think Trump supporters should be shut out of any discussion of any Christian topic, as they are not qualified to be heard on the subject. Let us amplify the just, and silence the unjust.
https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-a-declaration-by-american-evangelicals-concerning-donald-trump
Im not really surprised at Bill Johnson’s ‘twisting’ of Scripture. He said before that Jesus needed to be ‘born again’. ok right. Its a shame leading US evangelicals came out to support Trump, in the midst of his vile, nationalistic speeches and comments against just about everyone who isnt white and male. Many outside the church now view such evangelicals as total hypocrites. And rightly so. As for as God’s will is concerned, I do not know. Its certainly true that God has used ‘inappropriate’ leaders for His purposes, so I would not presume He does not continue to do so. We can’t exactly say that Hilary is ‘blameless’ in her behaviour. She advocates abortion on demand, purely for ‘convenience’. I think that is one of the main reasons for some Christians not voting for her. Which is understandable. Christians should have voted for one of the ‘independent’ candidates. That is what I would have done.
It should also be said that the results of the election show how perverse the voting system is, just like the one in the UK. As I understand it, Hilary got more actual votes from the people but still lost. In the UK, the Conservative party won the last election on just 35% of the vote, as if that reflected the ‘majority’ of the country.
But it seems Trump, literally within a few days of his election, is already softening in what he said prior to his vote, eg keeping parts of ‘Obama-care’, which he had previously said would be ‘fully repealed’, the ‘wall’ will consist partly of wire fences just as it is today etc. Perhaps Trump will be right – “it’s going to be great, folks”. lol
Can you prove Bill Johnson said that Jesus needed to be born again?
Pl see link: https://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/09/17/bill-johnsons-born-again-jesus-part-i/
It seems people like Bill Johnson have the need to say something ‘new’ but then contradict scripture.
I’ll check it out
Why is Trump being called “Hitler” and where is this message coming from? The other thing that comes to mind is, between two candidates, Clinton and Trump, when you are faced to choose between the two, one who supports abortion (seems more Hitler to me), versus Trump who does not support abortion, as a Christian, who do you vote for?
Well said.
As I point out in the video, Trump hasn’t been consistently pro-life and so there’s no guarantee that he opposes abortion (or that the abortion rates go down, they actually tend to do that under democratic presidencies). He on the other hand promotes torture, nuclear war and he wants to ignore climate change which would kill a lot more bron and unborn people all around the world. That’s pretty bad.
Hey, I recently saw a blog that cited that abortions are down under democratic presidencies as well. I think that’s an interesting point regarding social policies and individual life policies. It implies that the goal is no abortion. So I don’t think it means the answer is to not have mercy and loving the poor (good social policies). I think it means societies need love and mercy to help totally eliminate the need for abortion. But I believe it is still important for people to know that it is wrong and it is sin, not that it is just a medical procedure. So the goal isn’t just numbers, but peoples’ moral consciences as well. All human life is valuable, already born and the unborn.
Actually trump is not Hitler, however you would be blind if you do not see some similarities:
– Hitler in general was a typical populist, a very convincing public speaker, but with a nonexistent or very vauge political program how all given promises should be fulfilled.
– Hitler built his politics on the fear from “the other”, leveraging on racism and the need tp prioritize on the need for the Germans.
– Hitler was elected seen as an outsider where the Weimar republic had lost it´s credibility among a working- and middleclass suffering from unemployment and lack expectations for the future. While the academics and upper class where quite well of.
– Hitler promised major investements in infrastructure, also pared with wery unspecific fiancial promises for a splendid future
– People in general ignored all the warnings signs of the brutal antisemitism in the Nazi party, defeding it as Campaign strategis or minor Components that could be controlled/contanied if they reached Power.
– Hitler reached out to other despotes and dictators, and his successes where cheered by anti-democrats and racists all over the World.
– Hitler and the Nazi party promised the german christians they would uphold conservative christian values.
– The mainstream german churces at the same time found converging intrest in preserving christian values, nationalism and the anti-socialism
– many christians did see Hitler as sent from G-d, or/and blessed to rule.
– Hitler promised to restore the lost glory for the german people and nation.”make germany great again”
– When the hate policies could not be contained anymore many christians who had supported Hitler said: we didn´t see and we didn´t know
So now you’ve become the lone voice of God and those of us who have sought God on our face fasting and praying for a president to turn the tide of our country and for God to heal our nation are wrong. And you can say with a straight face that you don’t live in a fantasy world of your own making. That’s incredible.
sometimes after asking God for something, satan will send his version. but with Gods help, we can see through it and wait for the “God sent” thing to come along.
Mat 7:9 — Mat 7:11
Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
I´m sorry to hear that you have prayed so much but still forgotten to also read the scripture and follow it´s lead in trying the spirits if they are from God or the spirits of falsehood. (1 John 4).
I am equally sorry for you and those who follow your teachings. Tell me what do you make of the following scriptures?
Rom 13:1 — Rom 13:7
Submit to Government
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
What does it mean when scripture says that no governmental authority can exist without God and those that exist are appointed by God.
So you are saying that should challenge the Lord in His decisions on those whom He appoints.
What’s your take of this scripture?
Titus 3:1
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
Titus 3:2
to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
What does it mean to be subject to rulers, to obey them.
What does it mean in the above passage of scripture when it says to speak evil, i.e. calling Trump Hitler, of no one.
I feel sorry for you and those you have influence over that you feel that you are able to to challenge the Sovereignty of the Lord God in His choice of leaders.
I feel sorry for you and those whom you teach that you speak from your own understanding of scripture as did the pharisees but never stood in the counsel of the Lord to hear what He had to say.
Jeremiah 23:18
For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?
I feel sorry for you and those you teach that you have no fear of the Lord.
Dear Tony it´s so touching to hear that you feel sorry for poor souls like us who believes in all of the Holy Bible, at the same time you spam the pages with postings begging others to explain the scripture to you. Scroll back and see your own posting for yourself….
You hope that I should be kind to you and explain that the scripture say what you wish it to say, I´m sorry again, not because I cant say whatever you wish if it makes you feel better, but as you don´t seek to realize that I´m not the one to judge, and it´s not you are trying to convince, it´s so clearly yourself..
You have now argued for that Christians who lived under opression should have embraced the nazi regime, the soviet communism, the rule of IS/Daesh etc…. and now you desperately hope someone else will support you.
I´m sorry again, it will not help you at the end of time and I can only hope you find a better way, and a bible Teacher.
And I hope that you learn what it is to fear the Lord. From your responses it is obvious that you do not.
Answer me a question, When Hitler took over the reigns of government in Nazi Germany did the Sovereign Lord abdicate His throne? Was He taken by suprize? Did He become bewildered?
You claim to believe the Bible but aren’t able or worse unwilling to explain the meaning of the scriptures I posted to me. Instead you duck and dodge and avoid my questions. I would tell you to scroll back and examine your own answers. So I ask you when you read the Bible do you read what you believe or do you believe what you read?
Tony, I’m flattered that you still beg me to explain the meaning of the scriptures to you, and answear your questions about what you don´t understand. However if you scroll back you will actually find that I did answear, and before further weining about other not answearing your question you should maybe do an effort yourself to answear questions. However, your problem is not with me, it´s with the Holy Bible.
No my problem is not with the Bible. It is with your lack of belief in it and lack of belief in the power and sovereignty of God. So there are 2 possible reasons your do not respond to my request for your answers to the questions I posed. 1 being you have no understanding of the Scriptures or 2 you do not believe in the scriptures. Which one is it?
Its reason nr 3:
that you know you are wrong an want me and other Bible believing christians to solve your inner struggle and say the Bible can be adjusted after your wishes. And sorry, but it is not so.
As Christians true to the Holy Bible we know whats written an the call to obey the lord more than earthly lords (acts 5:29).
If needed for a good cause you can even break the religios law given by God (matt 12, mark 2:21-28)
On the final day the christians who suffered under, but refused to bow to evil earthly lords like nazism, soviet communism and IS/Daesh will be invited to share table with the king, and thoose who abandoned them can only hope for the mercy of the lord.(matt 25:31-46)
You have no idea what you’re talking about and therefore do not know the Word of God. It seems that the Word of God is a book of suggestions to you that you fit to whatever your circumstances are. That is the attitude of an individual who has no fear of God and doesn’t tremble at His word. It is also the attitude of e one who does not seek the Lord but has the audacity to interpret the word according to his knowledge and understanding and not God’s. You misquote scripture and take it out of context and ascribe to it whatever meaning you desire. It is obvious that you have nit sought the Lord as is evidenced by your responses.
Tony, Once again you use a full posting to actually prove the disadvantages of Liberal theology where you make claims coming from your own frustration instead of the Bible.
You can waste as many words as you want trying to judge or insult me, still every Bible based christian know that the Lord is the only one who can judge (Rom 14:10 / Jak 4:11). And it actually goes for both me and you, regardless how much you dislike it.
I can only share what I know from meeting many of the Christians that you so eagerly denounce (but obviously never have met, supported or shared the burdens with).
As you dont have a clue how it was for the Christians under the soviet rule, how it was to meet them in secrecy and pray togheter when the security police could come any minute. Or as you obvously don´t meet christian refugees from the IS/daesh controlled areas and listen to their stories from a living hell I should instead be careful with judgements over them (Matt 7:1-5), but not denounce their opressors.
Sorry to quote verses from the Bible that you don´t like but they will remain part of the Holy Scripture regardless if you like it or not (Rev 22:18-19)
I go back to my original 2 questions. Do you not understand what you read or do you not believe what you read? One of the 2 are correct.
May I never be so arrogant as to read a spiritual book with eyes of flesh and blood and come up with my own interpretation
Tony, makes me really happy that you seem to be ready to work with your problems, wish you all luck in your struggle !!
Thank you for confirming what I have believed all along aboit you which is that you do not believe in the Word of God.
Matt 7:1-5 (KJV) // Judge not, that ye be not judged.For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
That would be correct if I was judging. When a rose comes up out of the ground and it’s called a rose it’s not called judging it’s called an observation.
You want me to believe what you post but not not give the same credence to what the Bible says.
Tell me,
Tit 3:1 — Tit 3:2
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
God’s Word? Yes or no
Proverbs 18:2
Tit 3:1 — Tit 3:2
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
God’s Word yes or no?
So by this verses you motivate that christians should have been obedient and non-critical to Nazi-rule, soviet-communism rule or IS/Daesh rule ?
Have you totally forgotten that you just a few days ago “-May I never be so arrogant as to read a spiritual book with eyes of flesh and blood and come up with my own interpretation” ?
Was that just empty Words ?
nope, I don’t interpret the Word of God, I believe what it says and take it at face value.
Psa 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.
God’s Word yes or no?
I notice as well that when I have asked you repeatedly after quoting scripture whether or not you believed it was God’s Word you remain silent which further lends credence to what I have said which is you don’t believe in God’s Word. Furthermore, if you don’t believe in God’s Word then you don’t believe in God either because He cannot be separated from His Word.
very disappointed in christian leadership. if they are listening to the Holy Spirit, how could there different opinions of trump. is he Gods man or not?
He says he could shoot someone and not lose any votes. how is that possible? who Is donald j. trump, really??
On Jan 24, 2016 – Trump said: I could ‘shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters’ …. “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t …
Notice the similarity in what Trump says and what happens in this scene of the movie.
Everyone can hear what Trump is saying and see what he is doing, but what are they actually hearing and seeing?
Please compare what Trump said to this scene from the Left Behind: The Movie – The Antichrist Revealed
ppl (jim bakker, bill johnson, pat robinson, kenneth copeland, andrew wommack, paula white and many others) say that trumps win was a miracle. it was supernatural. perhaps. but even demonic things are supernatural. unexplainable in human terms.
these ppl probably would have voted for whichever republican candidate to win the primaries.
having the same respect for them as before if very difficult, almost impossible.
this election has shed a light on trumps slogan, “make america great again”
which actually means “make america white again”. this his followers know, understand and look forward to him (trump) bringing this to pass.
trumps victory was a whitelash against the browning of america. if the largest, fastest growing segment of the population is restricted in its growth (and numbers), making america white again is possible.
how foolish can christian leadership be??
you are indeed right, the problem is that all thoose leader has forgotten the word of the holy scripture and has lost their abiity to distinguish between the word of the Holy spirit and their own wishes and ideologies.
So once again you alone are the voice of God and all those who have sought the Lord for a godly leader are wrong. You alone are “he” who examines hearts and motives and therefore knows all and we should all listen to you. Does that about sum it up?
Dear Tony. How can those who reads the holy Bible in full ever be lonely (Rom 8:31), and whenever we gather the lord are among us? I´m sorry to hear that you have prayed so much but still forgotten to also read the scripture and follow it´s lead in trying the spirits if they are from God or the spirits of falsehood. (1 John 4).One of the images and working methods of Trump is manic lying and falsehood, and if this was not enough the bible clearly defines what is the fruits of the true spirit (Gal 5:22-23) that defines what is from God.
It’s also symptomatic with your criticism towards Christian brothers and sisters in the confession church who opposed the nazi regime, the Christians under former soviet rule who did not accept the oppression, or the Christians under the brutal regime of IS/Daesh who know their bible and know that they have the right to oppose the lords of this world if they don’t act righteous. Instead of your theology of bowing for all earthly lords and rulers (Acts 5:29) I´m sorry to say, but you have to realize that only a small minority of the global Christianity would bow to earthly lords, regardless if you call them Clinton or Trump, so you are the exception of the rule. Still God has not stopped seeking you, but you also need to seek him.
Our mission as followers of Jesus has never been to take stand for nations, rulers or parties. As Christians we are called to fight hate, injustice and falsehood and to preach the gospel in both our acts (often forgotten) and with our words (Joh 20:19-23 ).
Donald Trump – says a lot of wrong things, but God uses anyone; in the scriptures, the Lord used animals, heathen Kings, etc to bring about His will. At least Trump prays in JESUS name and has no problem saying JESUS CHRIST has come in the flesh.
Many supported Obama 8 years ago as the First Black President, but the things he has done against Christianity and Morality are deeply astonishing in History:
*The first sign was his inauguration prayer which ended in asking people to return to their mosques, cleverly masked in King James English which could just as well been a muslim prayer”
*Christian bakeries in U.S have been closed down by judges appointed by Obama for refusing to bake cakes for homosexual marriages*
*People have been told to stop saying Happy Christmas and to say happy holidays because Obama believes that the Christ in Christmas offends none Christians in a country where about 50% are Christians.*
*Obama has withdrawn money meant for the education of children from schools that have refused to allow boys and girls to use the same bathrooms and toilets.*
*Obama ordered Chaplains in US army to stop using the Name of Jesus during funerals.*
*Christian companies have been forced to employ homosexuals by Obama judges*
*laws have been made that allows 15 years old children to have a sex change operation without parental consent.*
*The Bible has been removed from the beds of US Christian soldiers by Presidential order*
*Did nothing for Africa and actually punished African Countries with funds withdrawal because of our broad dislike for homosexuality.*
*He sanctioned Nigeria because President Jonathan signed a bill against homosexuality.*
*He refused to visit his father’s country of Kenya because President Uhuru Kenyata is against homosexuality – he only visited Kenya last year; 7 years into his presidency so that it will not be on record that he never visited his fatherland as President, and when he visited, he tried to get President Kenyata to legalize homosexual marriage in secret.*
Hillary Clinton – supports everything Obama does.
Hillary would have continued all of Obama’s policies against Followers of Christ. Wikileaks reveals Hillary cooking spirits and practicing witchcraft.
Many people like her because she is a woman and would have become the first female President just as we supported Obama when we saw he could become the first Black President.
*America is the most influential country in the world: once Obama came out to endorse homosexual marriage 4 years ago – the Prime Minister of Britain and the President of France did the same thing within weeks.*
Bill Johnson. What he naive in crossing over the line from Propetic Witness to becoming “politicised” and seemingly “tribal”? Yes. But on this side of the pond – the UK – speaking as an Evangelical – we are not going to hang him up by his thumbs, because I believe he is Anointed and has been Crucified with Christ and is fully identified and committed to the whole Political and Social agenda of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospel Age – which is NOW – and it is an age in which Radical Physical Healing, Miracles, Social Action and Social Justice are all interwoven (and knitted together) expressions of seeking the Kingdom of God first…they cannot be separated. They are all Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. And I was Situationist and a Revolutionary Anarchist – and I still believe in and practice Acts 2 as the Burning Vision of Christian Communitarianism and in the Emergence of the Gift Economy of Luke 6:35. I know Bill Johnson is located in Matthew 6; Acts 2 and Luke 6 because in the Cross of Christ, the Bond of Peace of the Holy Spirit of Ephesians 4:3 reaches across all divides and calls us deepr into the Kingdon of God together.
“I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can’t see from the center.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano (1979)
I am writing this right out on the edge where Holy Fools, Mystics, Madmen and Visionaries tend to roam around.
In 2015 at the UK New Wine Leadership Conference in Harrogate, when a church leader asked Bill Johnson: ‘What is your theology of suffering?’ Bill Johnson responded ‘I don’t have one. I refuse to have a theology for something that shouldn’t exist’ and that kicked off a Job 2:1-4 moment – the adversary was jubilant: “he does not believe in suffering, this is great!” and being an expert on spiritual and psychological warfare was waiting…for an opportunity to really test him to the point of ‘skin for skin’.
Now Bill Johnson has a certain “impulsiveness” which came to the surface over Todd Bentley and the Lakeland incident – a certain Pentecostal ruggedness – especially when confronting a Hamartiology (Theology of Suffering) designed to speak to doubt and unbelief (cf. UK New Wine Leadership Conference, Harrogate), although what he was really saying is that ‘I do not have a theology for anything that “talks down faith” and (actively) denies the possibility of healing and doing those greater works’ (cf. Mark 11:24; John 14:12).
However, he was widely seen as denying the existence of the possibility of ‘suffering’ –
although he later issued a corrective distinguishing between legitimate suffering for the sake of the Gospel (cf. The Persecuted Church) and the type of Hamartiology which speaks to unbelief.
In a very different place, in that moment the die were cast…and he was inevitably going to be tested and ‘crucified in the public square’ – although there is a deeper soteriological dynamic in this (cf. Genesis 50:20a), Bill Johnson now has a redemptive Hamartiology and has become more compassionate and has been deepened through undergoing the Apostolic Sufferings (cf. 1 Peter 3: 8-17) and …finally arrived at Romans 8:1 or possibly crashlanded there (after going through an element of Luke 10:29a) – but you can never keep a good man down (Psalm 37:23, 24).
Hi Michael, just wondering if there is any increased insight developed over the past years? Always good to reflect.