Andrew Strom is a Christian who believes that large parts of the global charismatic movement is demonic. In his video Kundalini Warning, as well as in the book with the same name, he claims that false spirits have invaded ministries like Catch the Fire (the “Toronto Blessing” church), IHOP, Bethel Church, Morningstar, and more. These false spirits originate in the Hindu kundalini cult in India, Strom argues.
Now, you expect some strong evidence to support these radical claims, don’t you? Perhaps Strom have discovered some documents proving that before the Toronto Blessing began, pastors John and Carol Arnott went to India to receive kundalini teaching from a guru. Or perhaps Strom have made an interview with Bethel Church’s pastor Bill Johnson and found out that his greatest inspiration is Lama Rama Ding Ding from Uttar Pradesh?
Nope. On the contrary, none of these ministries have ever preached kundalini teaching, nor have they had any association with Hindu groups whatsoever.
So how does Andrew Strom then know that the spirit through which these ministries experience miracles isn’t the Holy Spirit but a kundalini spirit? The answer is of course: YOUTUBE VIDEOS! In Kundalini Warning, Strom shows us recordings from a kundalini meeting, where people according to him behave just like charismatic Christians. The guru lays his hands on people, and they start to shake, laugh, cry and praise the gods. Thus, when John Arnott lays his hands on people and they start to shake, laugh, cry and praise God, it is the work of the devil. If they are quiet, say amen and go and drink coffee afterwards, it’s the Holy Spirit, I guess.
The underlying assumption to Strom’s theory is that the Holy Spirit and evil spirits produce totally different “manifestations”, and thus you can discern the spirits through looking at these “manifestations”. If the kundalini Hindus had behaved totally different from charismatic Christians we would have known that they have another spirit, but since they behave similarly we know that it is the same demonic spirit. Can’t argue with that, can you? After all the Bible says:
“By the manifestations you will recognize [the false prophets]. Do people laugh when the Holy Spirit is present, or shake in His glory? No, that is the work of the devil.” (Matthew 7:16-17).*
“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that doesn’t make you behave strange is from God, but every spirit that causes weird manifestations are not from God.” (1 John 4:2-3).*
No, of course it doesn’t. Manifestations are never listed as a sign for discernment. The Bible says that we should discern the spirits through looking at if they elevate Christ or not. “No one who is speaking by the Spirit can say ‘Jesus be cursed’, and no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:3).
Whether people laugh or shake is irrelevant, what matters is their teaching and their fruit. And the people at Catch the Fire, IHOP, Bethel Church and Morningstar preach the full gospel about Jesus Christ, and their fruit is thousands of people saved and renewed in their faith. To say that these Jesus-loving Christians are involved in some Hindu cult is simply ridiculous.
*For clarification, this is NOT what the Bible says, and that’s precisely my point. The real Scripture quotations are, according to the NIV, “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.” and “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.”
I have met and heard Andrew Strom. I agree discernment should not be based solely on manifestations, and he does not. He is himself a Pentecostal who believes fully in the Gifts. He may be to one extreme on the discernment front, but I see the prophetic movement within the charismatic movement to be the other extreme where no discernment is allowed. There is plenty to question and confront. And there is plenty good being done in spite of things I would consider “wrong”. I have close friends who follow and are involved in things I don’t agree with, and have heard many false prophecies sold on $20 DVD packages. Trouble with “words from the Lord”.. .no one is allowed to question. And being sold for profit.. not respectable, imo. I love your posts here about Christians and money, and this to me is one of the biggest red flags in the entire movement that ruins its credibility. But I agree… manifestations alone do not prove, or disprove anything.
Are you or have you been personally involved with any of these organisations that you are acuasing, not counting “I went to a confrence once and I precived that they said” or “I read this book and this one sentence totally said this”? Do you have evidence for your claims that there is no discernment? I have been, am, part of what you has been labled the Prophetic movment. I spent a year a Bethel School of Supernaturally Ministry and I completly disagre.
Concerning the prophetic we are frecuently and adamantly thought that EVERY prophtic word must be judged no matter who uttered it. If we feel that we here from God concering ourselves such words should be judged in community, alongside people we trusth and whom have proven themselfves of good characther and discernment. If we feel that wee have gained new/more understanding of the bible we talk to people who know more than us!
If I would have precived that one of my leaders were doing something unhealthy I would have talked to them about it.
The keywords is, talked to them. And that is the reason why it is not completly unresanable for you to think that we do not have a high value for true discernment. We do not do judgment, we just don’t. So when I find fault with my brother I have zero need to preach about it or write books or by other means try to disgrace him. I talk to him in private and if we resolve it, he agrees to work on the issue ask the forgivnes of the people it concerns etc., no one has to know there was ever a confrontation, it happens all the time.
In this way the dignity and privacy of the person is preserved and we grow in relationship.
By saying “He may be to one extrem on the discernment front” what do you mean? Because in my world that’s not dicernment in any true sense of the word, and not merly a matter of having a unhealthy focus.
He is acuasing well respected ministers of outstanding characther and intergrity of being agents of satan.
And is effectivly saying that tens of thusands of devout christians are, at best, somehow being influenced by devils (with the rather strange outcome that they are feverntly worshing Jesus) or at worst actually worshiping demons.
Such accusations is easilly, if not worse than, comparable to accusing someone of murder.
So to accuse someone of such a thing without any hard evidence, and from afar without having any sort of relationship or deep firsthand knowledge is outright arogant.
Also concerning youtube and the internet, I have seen all kinds of strange clips and stories be atributed to Bethel when there is absolutly no connection at all.
Sounds like someone has hit a nerve. It’s tough having to defend human institutions or leaders as part of our spiritual identity. I am not defending Strom’s position (altho it has not been fully represented in this post) only to say there are legitimate problems that need to be addressed and there is great unwillingness to be honest about them. I admire Lee Grady and his willingness, from within the ranks, to be honest and call things as they are. And I don’t feel a need to defend my point on that either. Peace out. 🙂
Hi my friends!
I agree with you both. There are problems with lack of discernment and untested prophecy within the charismatic movement, and I think Jay Lee Grady often is good to point that out (unlike Strom, he doesn’t start to accuse thousands of Christians to be possessed by evil Hindu demons when he does so). But it’s problematic to say that this is a problem of “the prophetic movement”. What movement is that? Who does it include? As Oscar says, Bethel Church has a lot of discernment, and so has IHOP as well (I highly recommend Mike Bickle’s book Growing in the Prophetic, it deals a lot about testing prophecy). Yet Strom simply says that these ministries are demonic because they liked the Toronto Blessing. In my opinion, that’s true lack of discernment.
Ouch, what a sad, emotional response to the comment. I was eager to see the reaction to it, but was sorely disappointed. I have seen this kind of response way too often from people who profess to be Spirit filled, and yet I see no evidence of such behaviour from the One Whose Spirit we profess to have in us.
That said, I don’t see fruit as “thousands of people saved and renewed in their faith”; I never thought God looked at fruit in that (human-works) way. I would agree that the fruit (love, joy, peace, faithfulness, patience etc …) in lives of the “thousands of people saved and renewed in their faith” (and the leaders and rest) should be the factor to consider. Sadly, however, your response show little of that kind of fruit (and without that the “thousands of people saved and renewed in their faith” impresses me little) and only seems to confirm the “not open to questioning” belief.
Such a pity.
I wonder how many Pentecostals, in a knee-jerk reaction, have missed your point about Strom: “He is himself a Pentecostal who believes fully in the Gifts.”
Andrew Strom was once a part of the Prophetic Movement but left disgruntled because those in leadership did not declare him to be the great prophet he thought he was. So consider the source!
This book and many like it have been around for sometime. The source or authors are evangelicals, fundamentalists, and cessationist or embittered pentecostals. The process of yielding involves death to self on many levels as you know. Their will always be those in all camps or tribes whose heart is not pure. Many different manifestations are in my opinion introductory and help bring acclamation to those who trust more in their head than their heart before God.
I have experienced decades of different levels of various anointing such as these and the greatest value I have received is brokenness and meekness and hopefully humility resulting somewhat from the manifestation but mainly persecution from seeking or experiencing the manifestation. Very few of these critics will ever enter into a place of being able to presence God without a death to their strong opinions about the outward as they believe their ministry entails producing this type of video.. As has been said many times whenever there is a counterfeit there will be the real.
The enemy is always seeking to pervert the truth and manifestations of FLESH when Holy Spirit is poured out upon FLESH. I believe they are missing the point of Holy Spirit being poured out upon ALL FLESH. The journey begins from there but they want to control that process with traditions of men that make no sense at all to the lost and dying world and
hinder the church.
I spent years of my early Christian experience with evangelicals and fundamentalists and learned quickly when you seek those things in the scripture that they don’t believe are for today or not biblical according to their presuppositions they come up with videos like this one. I must say though I don’t teach manifestations or even expect them when they happen I watch and pray and on occasion enter in. I have devoted my life to being lead of Holy Spirit and have been trained by great men where these sort of manifestations are frowned upon. The Holy Spirit has allowed me the privilege of being raised in BOTH camps and the bigger picture is really starting to come together for my wife and I. Time will tell but my greatest concern is a quote from a theologian friend on my Facebook in relationship to a discussion with another brother doing something like this video.
“YOU THINK they are not right, don’t you attribute them to Satan! The whole of that Scripture, and I’m reading from my Greek New Testament, if men blaspheme God, it may be forgiven, if they blaspheme the Son, they may be forgiven, howbeit should any Blaspheme the Holy Spirit, IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM IN THIS LIFE OR THE LFE THAT WILL SOON COME! This He said in direct response to those who said, HE DOES THESE THINGS BY SATANS POWER!!”
Stephen Andrew Bundra
I agree with you stephen i was raised in churches that taught the gifts had ceased i am blessed to have been in both camps!
i think the big problem with all the coversations and points of view surrounding this topic is that they all have some grains of truth in them!
we Christians need to sit down together and pull out these grains of truth and put them all together then and only then ( when all the seeds of truth are together) will we have a full and clear understanding of this topic
we cant have partial truth and be right we must have ALL the truth! and the WHOLE truth
For years I didn’t question the crazy ‘gifts of the Spirit” because of the warning Jesus gave about the unpardonable sin of grieving the Holy Spirit. I realize now that by NOT denouncing what a lot of the new apostolic movement is doing was not exposing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit All those guys supported Todd Bentley and thus exposed themselves. The Holy Spirit is so precious and the devil has played havoc with imitation. The gifts do exist today
but once an evil spirit is introduced into the equation it’s confusion and chaos. The devil does tricks, God does miracles.
I agree with much of what you posted ,but I have to disagree “manifestaions alone do not prove or disprove anything” I think you are maybe attempting to separate discernment from the process of witnessing a manifestation ,for example a clear manifestation of a demon ,surely automatically triggers our discernment .
do you get what i’m saying any spirit filled christian will immediately sense ,somethings “not right” ? although to be honest I don’t know if this the “gift of discernment” the bible speaks of ,as some christians seem gifted to intellectually and verbally identify differing demonic spirits.
I agree with you. Discernment is being able to use the Bible to distinguish things. Word of wisdom and knowledge are just being able to speak with wisdom or Bible knowledge in a way that’s encouraging not a prophetic thing as said by many today- i used to believe this wrongly! People can misinterpret.
he key is that no one in the Bible filled with the Holy Spirit behaved like someone who was possessed. Some years back these manifestations were demonic but today they say its the Spirit of God – I think that is blasphemous. God says we should gird the loins of our minds and be sober minded therefore any spirit that causes people to blank out their minds, forget intellect and not think is not of God. The devil does such things (also speaking from experience). Any manifestation that looks like kundalini IS kundalini. I think anyone will be wrong to say the Holy Spirit does similar things. Charismatics are confused and so are many pentecostals…I left the movement only By the Power of God saving me. I was in bondage to it and experienced very strange things. It is a dangerous movement….came very recently…look up the history there are flaws everywhere…u cannot trace this back to the church fathers or early disciples so it is a massive counterfeit misinterpreting the Scriptures! You know the book of Revelation speaks of frogs coming out of the earth- these frogs, the Bible says will decieve with signs and wonders and that’s what these movements are called. How do frogs catch their flies’prey- the tongue! Think!
If u are a young person here, please don’t go through what i did. U are sincere in your heart. speaking in tongues going to night vigils but God knows you are seeking Him and like He did for me He will save you. Peace! Watch out! Dont be let by fear of men (these big preachers/prophets etc) Anything that does not focus on the Gospel and salvation is from hell. The Word says that: to the law and the testimony truly if they do not testify of these the truth is not in them. ….God’s Spirit saves through the True Gospel not miracles….guys think of this and search things thoroughly many of you are making A BIG MISTAKE! its amazing how i a sheep escaped from the pen kept by wolves….flee!
I agree. It is wrong and clearly dangerous to adhere to the thinking that “manifestations alone do not prove or disprove anything” . If I saw someone in a church screaming, calling out, and rolling ’round the floor—that would be enough for anyone with half a brain to realize that something is seriously wrong with that person, that that person desperately needs deliverance. I saw a video with Heidi Baker in which a teen age boy was doing just that and nothing was done. It was allowed to continue. (Something is way off in the current leadership of the charismatic movement, worldwide. But that’s a larger subject to expand upon at another time).
Andrew Strom was right to come out of the thick of it, and most of you inclined to a charismatic understanding would do well to come out from these large “New Mystic” churches, as well. I would venture to state conservatively that 80% of the charismatic Church is now in apostasy. Stay with a small group of friends, and worship in a home cell group, if possible. For we are living in a Day of great deception in all stations of organized Christianity.
Ian7759 I totaly agree. – Also: by looking at the root of the charismatic movement we can see that it probably orign in the chatolic church. And it are now really moving tward it again. That also probably is a desernement point. At lesast it shouts – big problem- to me.
Where in the scriptures do ANGEL FEATHERS appear?? Still waiting for someone to show me in scripture where that can be found. Not only does Bill Johnson claim they manifest in his meetings, but he also teaches (in his OWN BOOK) that Christ was not completely divine. That he “emptied himself of his divinity”. And he needed to be “born again” because he “became sin.” These are false teachings sent straight from the pit of hell. Leading Christians to believe that we too can “become divine like Christ” and open ourselves to coveting spiritual gifts as we seek them in our “3rd realm mystical experiences and impartations”. Not to mention DEMONIC spirits that are attracted to environments that twist the scriptures and claim “manifestations” that are not from God. Barking like dogs was one of the favs of the Toronto Blessing. But you already knew that..
Also, still waiting for someone to show me in scripture where EMMA is a female angel of revival. Rick Joyner claims in his OWN BOOK, that the Apostle Paul appeared to him and instructed him on teachings that “he left out of the Bible.” Really?? BOTH Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner stood on the platform of Lakeland and prophesied their own vain imaginations.
Apparently, the author of this blog exists to defend the false teachers that are fronting the “signs and wonders” FALSE movement that has invaded our churches. I wonder what you have to gain?? You can quote scriptures all day and twist their meaning to DEFEND this FALSE MOVEMENT of “signs and wonders”, but the Spirit of God is not with you.
The Bible says to TEST THE SPIRITS to see if they are of God. Sure, they can say in word form “Jesus is Lord” but they DENY HIM by their teachings and their actions. BTW, MANIFESTATIONS are a clear indicator of the source of power. Just like a physical manifestation of disease appears in the body . If the “spiritual manifestation” contradicts God’s Word and His character… then clearly it was not of God. God would NEVER cause someone to SHAKE VIOLENTLY, BARK LIKE AN ANIMAL, and/or send gold dust and ANGEL FEATHERS to confirm it’s from Him. No, that’s more like FALSE SIGNS AND WONDERS that appear to CONFIRM THE PREACHING OF FALSE DOCTRINE.
Hello my friend! Allow me to once again answer your questions and comment your statements.
“Where in the scriptures do ANGEL FEATHERS appear??”
Where in the scriptures does it says that a miracle must appear in the scriptures to be from God? My Bible says that Jesus did many miracles that the Bible didn’t record, and that we will experience the same and greater things as Him. God can heal cancer even if it doesn’t happen in the Bible, and he can create angel feathers.
“Not only does Bill Johnson claim they manifest in his meetings, but he also teaches (in his OWN BOOK) that Christ was not completely divine.”
No he doesn’t, that’s a misunderstanding from your side: http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/04/bill-johnson-and-divinity-of-christ.html
“Barking like dogs was one of the favs of the Toronto Blessing. But you already knew that..”
Over one million people visited the Toronto Blessing. Ten (maximum) behaved like animals. In all the ministries you blame as demonic, barking like dogs have never even happened during the last 18 years!
“Also, still waiting for someone to show me in scripture where EMMA is a female angel of revival.”
Still waiting for someone to show me where the Scriptures says that angels whose names aren’t listed in the Bible don’t exist.
“Sure, they can say in word form “Jesus is Lord” but they DENY HIM by their teachings and their actions.”
No they definitely don’t, they preach Jesus, pray for people and lead them to salvation.
“BTW, MANIFESTATIONS are a clear indicator of the source of power.”
Not according to the Bible, which isn’t even speaking about “manifestations”.
“God would NEVER cause someone to SHAKE VIOLENTLY, BARK LIKE AN ANIMAL, and/or send gold dust and ANGEL FEATHERS to confirm it’s from Him. No, that’s more like FALSE SIGNS AND WONDERS that appear to CONFIRM THE PREACHING OF FALSE DOCTRINE.”
I agree with that I don’t think God causes people to bark like animals, but the rest clearly isn’t something you have learned from the Bible but it’s basically that you yourself don’t like those things and thus you think that God doesn’t like them either. It’s like if I would say that God would never cause anyone to speak English or to use a computer. Sure enough, neither English nor computers exist in the scriptures, but that doesn’t mean that it’s demonic. Same thing with shaking and feathers.
Don’t forget about the old testament scripture that states “my watchmen are like worthless dogs that no longer bark” I find that scripture delightful considering those few manifestations maybe prophetic. lol
Hi! I just read your comment and would like meet an aspect of your accusation that was not meet in Micael’s answer:
You say: “If the “spiritual manifestation” contradicts God’s Word and His character… then clearly it was not of God.”
Surely. But “to contradict something” is not the same as doing that thing differently. For example, just as Micael said, there is not a single account in scriptures of God specifically healing cancer, but he does this today (an probably did so then as included in the many sicknesses Jesus healed). To add cancer to the list of sicknesses which God heals is not the same thing as contradicting God’s healing of sicknesses.
The same principle applies to much of your criticism. However, I think that you are wrong in some of your claims about what the Bible tells about God’s actions:
“God would NEVER cause someone to SHAKE VIOLENTLY”. Well, how would you know? God made the people tremble at Sinai (Ex. 19:16-18). The word tremble might here have more a psychological function than physical, but how could the latter aspect be excluded just from a reading of the text? Indeed, the same word חָרֵד is used for the mountain of Sinai to denote that it trembled and quaked – just in the same context! Is it not more possible that both mountain and people were shaking in the presence of God? In the case with the Church, we are God’s house, and God makes buildings shake in his presence (Isa. 6:4). In addition, people have physical reactions to the presence of God: they often fall, like John in the presence of Jesus’ glory (Rev. 1:17) and the soldiers who arrested Jesus (Jn. 18:6). Daniel fell, had no strength, and even passed out, and went into a deep sleep (Dan. 8:7-10, 17-18; 10:8-9). He was overwhelmed by God’s presence, having no strength to get up (Dan. 10:9, 17).
“God would NEVER cause someone to BARK LIKE AN ANIMAL”. There is biblical evidence suggesting otherwise. This is in fact a genuine prophetic response to the move of God: “Because of this I will weep and wail; I will go about barefoot and naked. I will howl like a jackal and moan like an owl (Micah 1:8).” – See the context, where this is a response to God’s action. It is not common in the scriptures (I’ve found one reference), and as Micael pointed out, it is neither common in the Toronto movement. But it is there. In both instances.
“God would NEVER … send gold dust and ANGEL FEATHERS to confirm it’s from Him.” Well, that is just a few things being added to an already quite impressive list of “confirming signs”: a burning bush, a staff transformed into a snake, leprosy appearing and disappearing, leprosy appearing not to be removed, dew appearing in certain areas but not others etc. Once again, there is nothing in heavenly dust and feathers CONTRADICTING the Bible, the appearance of these are just added to a list of miracles which either tampering with matter or making something materialize – in other words: similar things done differently! I think that any reader of the Bible would be able to come out from a reading of the full length collection of biblical books with the impression that this is a God who actually does new things, and things differently, through history. Why would that stop outside of the history written down in the Bible? Would not such a claim rather actually contradict the nature and character of the God who is revealed in the Scriptures?
Sorry, just one more thing I feel the need to add to these responses… the Apostle Paul had the nerve to state (in 2 Corinthians 5), that He “became sin” (that we might become “His righteousness”). Interesting language for the Bible to use.
*Isaiah 7:13-17 is also food for thought if you aren’t convinced of Jesus’ full humanity even while being God Himself.*
I agree with you 100%
God bless you for speaking the truth in love.
Its amazing how I escaped! Praise God Most High! The Living Most High God. One God in three persons distinct yet equal in essence and substance. Praise Him who sits on the thrown who removes veils and scales from the eyes of the innocent…who, because of His unfailing love even in the mire, caught deeply in this where i was considered very anointed and most spiritually mature in my youth group having dreams, etc and hearing voices and etc (as they would say I was a prophetess), God saved and delivered me. If you do not renounce this movement you are saying what Jesus did was not enough you are to some extent rejecting the Gospel- think about it!
I didn’t think I will bump into this website. Stick with the Bible alone. If someone is in falsehood they will do all they can to reject or distort the evidence like the article on storm does. Look at the Bible….don’t follow anything that’s not clear in the Bible and so are these manifestations and tongues—just think did Peter and Paul really behave like this….if so why didn’t they record it. Did anyone preach on material prosperity- did Jesus? Wasn’t Paul ship wrecked? Didn’t all the apostles die painful deaths and suffer. We are seeing a new religion and it is not Christianity–its new age. The founders of the word of faith movement were occult ( Quimby and Kenyon). The people who first witnessed tongues in the last centurY or so had a leader (Charles Parham) who was a homosexual and was kicked out of his church. Do u want to accept manifestations and the explanation of ‘gifts’ from people with these backgrounds? Without them, no Christian will be speaking tongues today and no Christian will be preaching prosperity. And by the way at the start of these two movements, people warned. Biblical scholars( ofcourse Charismatics hate sound doctrine and theology…..2/1 timonthy 4 a time will come they will not endure sound teaching…but will give ear to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils….which is now…the frogs in revelation are here and they use ‘tongues’)
PRAY TO THE LORD TO SHOW YOU THE TRUTH AND U MUST BE WILLING TO ACCEPT ONLY WHAT HIS WORD SAYS IS 100% FROM HIM IF ITS SHADY OR OBSURE IT COULD BE ANY SPIRIT. GOD DOES NOT CONFUSE HIS CHILDREN AND HE LOVES US. IN THESE MOVEMENTS SOMETIMES THERE IS COMPETITION……AND THEY SAY GOD LOVES EVERYONE BUT REALLY THEY THINK SOME PEOPLE LIKE THE LEADERS ARE MORE FAVOURED (”ANOINTED”) THAN THE REST…..YET THEY TELL U GOD IS NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS! RUN ! RUN! RUN FOR YOUR SOUL! WATCH: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE SERMON BY CARTER COLON
I disagree with a lot of discernment ministry that is not based in relationship and which doesn’t serve the purpose of edification. That being said, my biggest problem was with the two verses quoted
“By the manifestations you will recognize [the false prophets]. Do people laugh when the Holy Spirit is present, or shake in His glory? No, that is the work of the devil.” (Matthew 7:16-17).
“This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that doesn’t make you behave strange is from God, but every spirit that causes weird manifestations are not from God.” (1 John 4:2-3).
I’ve studied biblical greek for a couple years and can read it fairly proficiently. But even someone with simply an inter linear could realize how overwhelmingly biased and inaccurate this translation is. I still have a hard time believing somebody could be so completely and deliberately deceptive as to change a verse like that and claim it as the word of God. Which version is this?
It’s the International False Version (IFV), published by Deception Ministries. No, I’m just kidding – I changed the verses to prove that the Bible never says that we should discern based upon manifestations. We should discern based upon fruit and belief in Christ.
That’s hilarious, I totally missed the sarcasm. Haha, I feel a bit ignorant now. That was the first post that I read on your tumblr so I wasn’t sure where you stood in regard to Andrew Strom’s book. A closer read and I can see quite cleary. I was curious why you might be supportive of both him and also Iris ministries who are very closely related with Bethel.
I’ll have to check out that IFV version, it sounds really good ;).
I SOOO AGREE WITH YOU!!! The scriptures are twisted as is the “discernment.” But rebellion and pride will always see what it wants to see, and always say what it wants to say until the time appointed of the Father…..
Du har använt mitt forum för att annonsera om denna blogg. Du har fått en del frågor där som jag tycker att du bör svara på.
hi micael. i think that when the Holy Spirit is poured out in dramatic ways such as at toronto we may see manifestations of the Spirit, manifestations of the enemy, and manifestations of the flesh. it isn’t always easy to tell which is which at first glance, and i agree we do need to rely on actual discernment to test the spirits. many christians in the west do not have much experience with charismatic things, and so if they see something strange they may assume it is the enemy when it isn’t. on the other hand, the enemy can counterfeit the real like we see with moses and the magicians and their staffs turning into snakes in exodus 7. i think we have to be careful not to rush to judgment like some do when seeing strange manifestations and wait for God to actually reveal which spirit is at work if we aren’t sure right away. from my experience i believe sometimes it can take time to know. it is easy for humans to get lazy and decide every manifestation is of the devil or everything manifestation is of God.
Very well said Linda. As a Christian, I don’t want to write off everything that does not appeal to my own comfort zone, but there are things that my spirit instantly rejects as such as when I see people whose heads start flipping back and forth so fast HD videos can’t even keep up or animal noises and other demonic sounds coming from a person. I have never watched the Exorcist but I have seen clips and I get the same feeling watching some of these things. They do not seem reverent to our Most Holy God and I for one am not going to run after these things. The enemy wants to cause confusion and we must stay single minded. If I try to imagine Jesus doing these things, I can not picture it.
Debbie, I wonder if you were also in attendance at the same place and time as I was when a certain respected gentleman came under an annointing with vigorous head movements. This was a meeting with a guest speaker, a known christian leader seemingly imbued with supernatural and miraculous manifestations which followed him. It seemed bonified to me, given the framework and expectations we were aware of. Some time later I asked the man with the rapid head movements about his experience. My recollection is that he had previously sustained injuries which had restricted head movements. Ok?
This same minister mentioned tbe miraculous which had happened along the interior Amazonia region. He asked why anyone would venture to such a humid area in mid summer. Hmm, he continued to tell us pf an entire school for the deaf was healed. I believe it was deaf people. Perhaps it was eyesight or something. It was about 10 yrs. ago.
A charismatic friend of mine who was a missionary in Romania, began sending me Andrew Strom’s newsletter a few years ago. All that I have read has been solid, Biblical, and faithful.
Tod Bentley and many other Pentecostal celebrities have failed the test of faithfulness to God’s word and disqualified themselves from leadership according to the Bible’s standards. By their fruits ye shall know them.
In the video Strom has made that has made his theories so well-known, he is in my opinion far from solid and Biblical. As I write above, he labels a lot of different ministries and churches as demonic or new age simply because he thinks they have “weird manifestations”, which is not a Biblical discernment variable. As I state above, the Bible never says that we should look at if people shake or not when discerning the spirits; fruits refer to love, joy, peace and the like (Gal 5). And there’s a lot of those fruits at Bethel Church, Catch the Fire, IHOP and other ministries that Strom critisises. Therefore I don’t think he is biblical.
Who says weird manifestations are not a Bible discernment variable. I think you’ver made a lot of things up either on purpose or ignorantly. Well if someone behaves like they are possessed then they are! Or Gal 5:22-23 says ‘….being possessed or acting like so is a fruit of the Spirit and requires no disappoval’?? No ! And please don’t quote fake scriputres without saying right away that they are false… you actually seem to attack a person and not the argument. it seems u are bent on these manifestations being from God either you are not of God or you are confused or you just dont want to be wrong….face it- you wont employ someone who behaved like that all the time yet u say that’s spirit filled and its not. being spirit filled does not include manifestations therefore if anyone does manifest it is of the devil….
and…..i am yet to meet a genuine pentecostal/charismatic who bears the fruit of the spirit…they only seem to be ”nice/happy” in church when they have these ritual/manifestations – they are not of God.
And because charismatics/pentecostals believe in extrabiblical revelation they can twist the Bible to do what they want eg. divorce because ‘god told them to’, want lots of money because god does not want his kids broke and be healthy because god healed themby his strips! ridiculous….some apostles died sick.timothy was sick and paul didnt heal him…paul faced sickness and so did many who preached the word in truth. shame on the movement. They Lord deal with them and those who leads people like me astray. The Lord arise and His enemy be scattered. The Lord expose the enemy! Amen
I agree with you Michael. Todd Bentley has caused a lot of confusion in the body. It is right to support him on a personal and human level, but supporting his leadership has exposed other Pentecostal celebrities, as you put it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Signs and wonders can come from the enemy as well as being faked by people. Chasing after them distracts us from hearing from God through His supernatural Word. I really can’t see Jesus kicking an elderly woman in the face like Todd proudly talks about. It bothers me that so many are being deceived.
Scripture is incorrect in the article. Matt 7:16-17 go to your bibles
That’s correct David, and it’s the point of the whole article. The Bible never mentions “manifestations” as a discernment criteria, thus the sarcastic “Bible quotes” above. Blessings!
I myself would be pretty nervous about making up false bible quotes, even in jest. Just a thought…
I think it was Tony Campolo who highlighted all Bible verses that talk about social justice and poverty reduction (about 2000), took a cissor and cut them all out, showing it to people and said “this is the American Bible”. Of course some got upset, but the true problem was that so many American Christians (and other Christians as well) have those verses in the Bible and still don’t care about them at all.
Likewise, the true problem here is that Andrew Strom and thousands of other Christians have a Bible that never mentions weird manifestations as something to look at when discerning the spirit and yet that is precisely what they do. Through these fake Bible verses I’m highlighting the absurdity of the Kundalini Myth. Just like this video highlights how Christians in practice try to change Jesus’ commands:
Have a look at the “strange fire” conference over at Grace to you. God Bless
Hi Walter! I have seen it and thought that it indeed was very strange 🙂 Here are some of my thoughts about the event:
I have and praise God I did. It was an answer to my prayers! I was so lost I was loosing myself I did not know where my mind was but people thought i was anointed. The Lord works in ways we may not understand now. You could have never convinced me tongues were not from God or not the Bible kind of tongues or miracles and etc were not from God or were not true miracles. The Lord is good. He allowed me to go through what I did so I would be able to receive His Word by His Grace and so I can expose these falsehoods!
Now this comment might stir up a bunch of stink, but I feel that it is necessary.
First, by reading and responding to this comment, you are agreeing to be a rational, respectful adult. No childish insulting, no insinuating, and absolutely no knee-jerk reactions. If you dispute anything in this comment, I expect you to have researched the issue in full.
Now, let us assume for a moment that we do not know everything like we so often think we do.
Ok, now what makes any of you think that this Strom fellow is correct. Last I checked, isn’t he a man? Matter of fact, aren’t all of you men? Are your pastor’s not men? (men meaning human) This would be correct, right? Well, what does the bible say about men and their doctrines? Let us see;
“Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” – 2 Peter 1:20-21
This verse tells us that the interpretation of man is of no use to us. It is false, the incomplete doctrine of man. Only the Spirit can give us the eyes to see the true wisdom of the scripture, wisdom being one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
So, to get back on topic, we now know that no amount of youtube or whatever this guy was doing can give us correct interpretation of the Spirit, only the spirit itself can. Now you guys are ready for the bombshells. If you love your doctrine and dogma more than God, click the X in the upper right hand corner now please.
Since we, in and of ourselves, have established that we cannot know everything because we don’t know the mind of God, we must begin to search for the truth. Was anyone that claimed to have the Kundalini experience asked if they loved Jesus Christ. I doubt it. The thing is, this Kundalini serpent is the same that was raised on the pole by Moses in the OT. The raising of the Kundalini is the Holy Spirit. Two different words for the same spiritual transfiguration based on the two separate regions in which the terms originate. Anyone that has had either experience and is genuine can and will confirm this for you. Of course, if you are of the variety of Christian that thinks it is blasphemous to say we can ascend and be like Christ, you will most certainly ignore all of the Kundalini references in the Bible.
I made that last point because the Bible, numerous times alludes to the life we can have in Christ. The potential to be in the mind of Christ that Paul so often refers to. What do you think Christ Mind is? It is a spiritual transfiguration that happens within you. Christ said that we all had the potential to become like him and do all he did in more. He even goes on to say that we all are Sons of God, or sons of the most high. The biggest thing about this is that he didn’t even come up with that. He was telling the truth as given to him and also referring to the psalms.
Psalm 82:6 clearly states in plain language: “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” Christ was quick to remind the Jews out to stone him that this was written in their law. Take heed of that, this is the message from God to you: YE ARE GODS. Psalm 82:7 goes on to tell us: “But ye shall die like men, and fall like any other ruler.” This is simply because we ignore our body, our temple of the living God. We forget that all men are created equal, we instead hide behind division and claim righteousness while we judge others based on their beliefs because ours is the one out of over 30,000 denominations of Christianity that got it right. Because we know the mind of God so much so, that we know for a fact only the one segment out of the entire population of the earth, that we just so happen to belong to, got it right and is therefore going to heaven. All others are demon worshiping retches. This is the rhetoric being espoused in most churches and christian communities today. This is what will be the spiritual downfall of all who subscribe to man made doctrines.
There is no such thing as division. God is in us and we are in God, it says so plainly in the bible. That means that all of creation resides within God. Until we grow up and realize this and move away from egocentric religious division we shall die like men and fall like any other ruler. You have to wake up and realize your inheritance as a Son of God to realize “Ye are Gods”. Read that scripture in it’s full context and tell me that I am wrong. The whole scripture alludes to people wondering in darkness because they are asleep and cannot see.
Okay, I’m done here. I fully expect this to rattle your cages. If it does, good. We all need to take a long hard look at ourselves. We all need to really read the Bible and be still and know God instead of listening to the doctrines of men. Most importantly, we all need to wake up and realize that Agape love, Christ love, does not judge anyone based on anything, but loves everyone and everything because we are all one in Christ. May the Holy Spirit give you all the ears to hear and the eyes to see this wisdom.
I love each and every one of you!
I agree with most of what you just said except for your one comment that the Kundalini spirit and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. The devil can, in fact, mimic and recreate false manifestations that are similar to those created by God. As this blog post reasons, to test where it’s from, you have to see if it confesses Jesus as Lord.
The Kundalini Hindus are definitely NOT being led by the Holy Spirit just because they are having the same manifestations or because the Kundalini spirit gives itself a few names that the Bible attributes to any member of the Trinity. The Hindus are worshiping this Kundalini spirit as well as many false gods; so, they are definitely not worshiping our Savior, Jesus.
So, whatever this Kundalini thing is, it is a false version that produces similar manifestations. The Bible does talk about there being false signs and wonders in the last days that would deceive even the elect of God. That’s what the Kundalini thing is. It’s false signs and wonders to divert ;people away from worshiping our God.
Look at the account of Moses. He did amazing signs that all the pharaoh’s magicians were able to reproduce by demonic power.
Then look at the instance of the golden calf. The Israelites attributed their rescue from Egypt to this golden calf saying that it was the god that brought them out of Egypt.
So just because it has similar manifestations and calls itself a few names that the Bible calls God does not make the Kundalini that the Hindus worship the same as the Holy Spirit that we worship. Be careful you don’t mix those two. Test everything by whether it praises Jesus or not, not by the manifestations or false names.
I agree with you completely Isaac. The Holy Spirit and the Kundalini spirit are definitely NOT the same. I hope it wasn’t me you were referring to because I have never claimed such a thing.
It is rather presumptuous to assume that you absolutely KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that leaders in the church are in error and you are discerning their “error.” Even our sense of being RIGHT can very much be WRONG in God’s eyes. Be mindful that you do not find yourself blaspheming the Holy Ghost by pointing at His move and calling it the devil. Be wise like Gamaliel, and let God prove the fruit of things that you do not perceive, understand, or agree with. Pray for humility in your quest to follow Christ….
Hello Queen Abbess!
I think you have misinterpreted the article, I am criticizing Andrew Strom and his weird Kundalini theory. I am not pointing at the move of the Spirit and calling it the devil, I am criticizing such behaviour.
Interesting an pertinent post and discussion. Forgive the long post. Having been a charismatic since 1975 and witnessed moves of the holy spirit initially through the Episcople church and with Dennis Bennett and the through the Catholic Charismatic Movement in the late 70s I thought I had seen it all. But then stumbled upon a man named John Wimber in1985. He was very similar in style to Bill Johnson but spent a significant amount of time talking about the Kingdom of God in a professorial way which I enjoyed. I spent over 20 years in Vineyard and help plant two churches there. I have been to conferences with C. Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, Bob Jones, mike Bickle, Kraft, Parker and about 25 other people popular in the movement.
Now to the germane discussion. In 1994 my pastor told me that he had just from the Toronto Vineyard where he servered as regional overseer. He said that he had witnessed some things that were disturbing. Now this was from a man who presided over conferences with John Wimber where people were pogoing 3 feet high for 20 minutes! He said he felt something in his spirit that was like a knot in his stomach and gave him great unease. He brought John Wimber in and he too felt that something was off and that Toronto was not following the Holy Spirit in what hey were doing. At he same time 100s of people were driving from my Vineyard 8 hrs to get to the Totonto Vineyard and be a part of the next move of the HS. They would come back with great stories of seeing their spouse crawling on hands and knees barking like a dog. And talk about uncontrollable laughter. Many thought the experience of the HS. I couldn’t decide who was correct. Both groups were educated. Both passionate about serving Christ and mature. One group “felt” it wasn’t from the spirit, the other thought it was.
1996 driving home from a consulting engagement I had car trouble. A man picked me up and not only drove me to my hometown, which he was driving through but to my house which was 30 mins out of his way. He was a pastor who had just planted a church in northern Ohio. Imagine my interest when he said he had spent the previous several years at the Toronto Vineyard. We had a great conversation. He was a marvelous conversationalist with great moves of the spirit in his life. When We arrived at my house I invited him in to meet my wife. Again we had a great conversation and he he asked he could prayer for my wife and me. He prayed and got back on the road for his original destination. Immediately my wife said to me, “Something is terribly wrong!” “I feel it too,” I said.
It was like a wave of nausea kept flooding over me. There was also a weight as if we were submerged a few feet under water. Having led numerous deliverances over the years I knew to ask the presence of the HS. Immediately I saw the word “Divination” in my mind and when we prayed against it that spirit left.
Weeks later we prayed for another couple who had had a great experience at he Toronto Vineyard but had suffered from sleeplessness and anxiety since. I didn’t know at the time they had gone to Toronto. We prayed and waited, prayed and waited then again the word “Divination” appeared in my mind. I shared it with some trepidation, as I knew them to both committed Christians but also great homegroup leaders. They couldn’t come up with anything in their lives related to “Divination.” Then I remembered what had happened with my wife and me. I asked if they had been to the Toronto Vineyard and sure enough they had and their visit had coincided with their symptoms. We prayed, there was coughing and gagging and then calm. Anxiety and sleeplessness went away immediately.
Anecdotal, yes, easy to discern, no! Have prayed for over a dozen Christians who have been victim of these false spirits including demonizations that occurred at a Benny Hinn conference and two individuals that had traveled to Lakeland to see Todd Bentley. Don’t have any experience of Bill Johnson and agree with the sentiment that counterfeit looks real so real looks counterfeit is wrong thinking. But have seen men with their MDivs and 25 yrs of experience in ministry fooled by the divination spirit running through parts of the Charasmatic church and when one sees mass strange behavior (like Toronto, like Benny Hinn, like Todd Bentley) you discerning antenna should go up.
Extremely helpful! Thank you. The discernment of spirits is a gift that seems to be greatly lacking in the church.
Very similar to my experience. Now I actually sleep very well. No attacks nothing. Some charismatics say the devil does not attack those that are his own but I know it is because I am tucked safely in Christ and no apostle or Christian in the Bible experienced what I did only those in the occult/divination. It is exactly that:divination. God help us!
Should have also mentioned that I had an individual joined Vineyard who was high up in the transcendental meditation culture here in the US. He shared of being slain in the spirit numerous times in TM. He was also claimed something similar to words of knowledge. Once a Christian he needed years of prayer to overcome the damage of open demonic possession. He traveled to Pennsicola, Fl in 1996 to recieve an annointing or outporing of the HS (so he thought). He said once that once he got to the Brownsville AOG that within a few minutes of being in the service he had to leave. And claimed that he was encountering the same demonic forces that had possessed him during his TM days. Other Christians that had traveled with him had no such sense. Later all needed prayer for deliverance. For the cessation isn’t this post will seem pointless. But for the mature Charasmatic who knows how to test the spirits Strom’s book may be helpful.
You said “their fruit is thousands of people saved and renewed in their faith.”
I haven’t read Strom’s book and I keep my own council but 1000s were saved at Toronto and mature Christians were demonically oppressed by the spirit of Divination.
1000s were saved at Brownsville and mature Christians were demonically oppressed by the spirit of Divination.
1000s were saved at Benny Hinn Conferences and mature Christians were demonically oppressed by the spirit of Divination.
1000s were saved at Lakeland and mature Christians were demonically oppressed by the spirit of Divination.
I haven’t ever prayed for deliverance for someone who attended Bethel and I have 38 years of Charasmatic surprises that were authentic and produced unexpected fruit. But My deliverance ministry has taught me to be cautious. And your ministry measure of conversions to Christ is, surprisingly, inadequate for discernment. Strom may paint with too broad a brush but perhaps has some points that we should consider playfully as well.
Or maybe they were given PTSD ?
Prayerfully not “playfully” …iPad auto correct, doh!
[…] gråter etc. när de ber om andeuppfyllelse på karismatiska möten. Med hjälp av Andrew Stroms kundalini-teori antar de att detta är samma sak som hinduism och new age eftersom liknande […]
The argument for it is good. Ijust have a feeling about it that makes me un-easy about the movement. Im penticostal baptised in the holy spirit. But when i see people barking like dogs and preachers exspanding off the bible my blood just runs cold. One other thing everytime ive seen the HS speak through some one he gives his message and he doesnt interupt himself with spastic movement. Im still in serch if this is of God but when i pray i do it without ceasing 1 thess 5:16-18
Finally some one calling out Strom on his ridiculous teaching!! His book was used to oppress me and beat me over the head to the point of extreme depression. I can tell you there is an evil spirit behind this book! I experienced it first hand.
The type spirit, good or evil would depend on person’s intention. How it affects, depends on person. Depends on path is to what they call it. Medically,its the same energy, science is using kundalini to give it an umbrella term, which led to the hogwash about todd, Morningstar, etc. I have had this same energy awaken, actually from an event of Joel Osteen, who is not false at all , but yes, i had similar effects being high for a while, opening of chakras, no tongues or animal sounds or violent movements , it was just emotional roller coaster, seeing visuals as if on an acid trip, etc with naked eye, body doing yoga like movements but nothing i couldn’t handle, visuals.
Regardless of whether this is evil/good, ultimately en masse people are being placed into hypnotic states where they are then surrounded by people praying over them and talking about Jesus.
Unfortunately, this is ultimately post hypnotic suggestion and if the beliefs prayed into that person are ever questioned, can cause significant mental health problems later.
Whilst whoever is doing this may have people best interests and a loving heart they need to stop talking once someone is under and let the person be, though obviously this will be difficult as there’s normally someone playing some christian dave matthews band music and ad-libbing in the background.
So if you really love them, don’t.
If they are depressed/anxious, try talking to them before they’re in a trance ?
I’d just like to give the limited perspective of my personal experience: I’ve been unraveling some spiritual baggage lately, following the horrifying discovery that the “Holy Spirit” that spoke in my mind for most of my life was unwilling to confess Jesus as Lord. It’s painful, but I need to find how deep the deception goes and uproot it from my life. I have started to experience physical symptoms, such as twitching, tingling, energy currents, and even violent shaking, any time I challenge or irritate one of the demonic spirits I haven’t properly evicted from myself yet. But the strongest and most lingering symptoms subsided when, in desperation and curiosity, I walked through a prayer for deliverance from a bunch of Yoga deities and/or concepts I could barely pronounce. I was very surprised that it made so much difference, as I have never done Yoga or anything remotely Hindu-inspired in my life–nor have my mother who taught me the faith or (as far as I know) any of the pastors who prayed over me. All of us spent our lives believing we had pure untainted Christianity. But in my case, I guess I was wrong. I still want to see a professional exorcist so that he/she can interrogate whatever my tongues and healing gift come from, and if necessary, send them away with all their weird unpronounceable friends. I hope the gifts turn out to be from the real Holy Spirit, but I won’t get my hopes up anymore. I don’t know what to trust now, if even my Christ-loving mentors could overlook such infiltration. What makes it even worse is that my mother firmly believed she had the gift of Discernment of Sprits, yet she was never able to point out, “Oops, you’ve got a Hindu snake thingy on your brain stem! Better get that off before you lay hands on someone!” This is one deep rabbit hole…
I fully agree to what Uber Genius’s shared about divination spirit that has being deceiving Christians and infiltrating into churches today. Be aware of Kingdom Invasion …. Kundalini spirit is behind it.
[…] The Kundalini Myth […]
[…] The Kundalini Myth […]
[…] infected large parts if the Christian, charismatic movement, but as I showed one month ago this Kundalini myth has neither biblical nor empirical support, and so saying that influential charismatic leaders are […]
Exactly, I would have to say Andrew Strom gives out too much fear and he almost crosses the line of legalism. I can see his heart is keeping the church pure but he is causing it through fear and control in my opinion. If you watch many of his videos or teaching, it all about the fear of God or his holiness. I have never heard preach on Gods mercy( which bible talks about more then Gods wrath) or of Gods love. There needs to be a balance of both. He reminds me of hard line baptists that would bang your head with a bible. He does that a lot. I would recommend Tom Scrella from Scrella ministries in the link below. He much more joyful to listen too.
I can only offer my testimony
After 20 years of walking with the Lord in and in mainstream churches in small county towns where we thought we were so ‘theologically right’, but so often dry and dead, I wondered at times why it was Ok to get excited, laugh and cry in a sporting match, but be so quiet, bored and boring in the supposed presence of the living God . (Having said that, of course so many years walking with he Lord have also yielded much fruit, seen souls saved, but there has been much striving in my own strength.)
I think I am reasonably discerning and have had many ‘spiritual experiences; but have also had a suspicion of the money-focus of many Pentecostal churches. 20 years ago, as a new Christian, I also scoffed at the Toronto blessing, As a journalist, I do feel I am a reasonably critical thinker.
So, it was with a great deal of cynicism I went to a series of meetings with a ‘prophetess’ Isabel Allum, (invited by a friend) who had lived with and was mentored by John and Carroll Arnott. Expecting to be sadly disappointed, I was so impressed with the love, godliness, sacrifice and complete lack of hype. The days were full of gentle, personal miracles from the Lord and such a deep sense of calling and recommitment to Jesus. Following the meetings I felt my Bible had come alive, and my heart to reach out to others had been renewed in a very authentic way.
So, with a group of friends I recently attended a Catch the Fire leaders meeting and was so, so impressed with the gentle love, Biblical basis and eldership of John Arnott and his team. Maybe there are areas in the manifestations that I didn’t get and still don’t, and I’m sure they do not get it 100% right and won’t this side of heaven– but I saw fruit — such fruit in so many of the ministries birthed in Toronto.
My darling friend who had suffered so much in life, laughing like a child until she cried. It wasn’t demonic, it was a beautiful freedom and a breakthrough and in the time that she’s returned home, she’s on fire for the lord and sharing Jesus like never before.
There I met a member of my denomination who had lovingly ministered to the poorest and neediest of the poor and brought untold numbers of souls to Jesus and disciple them. I’d always wondered how he kept on fire for the Lord and found out he had been visiting the Toronto ministry for years.
Look at Heidi Baker — 10,ooo churches preaching Jesus, feeding hundreds of thousands of orphans, preaching Christ. I had no idea other Catch the Fire leaders like Duncan Smith travelled to incredibly dangerous outlying regions of the world to preach the Gospel regularly.
Even if they are as wrong as some seem to think — and sorry, I truly am convinced they are Godly men and women, with their hearts anchored in the Bible –the apostle Paul said Philip 1:18 ‘What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.’
So rather than tear down our brothers and sisters, maybe we should bless them and be assured, Jesus is being preached and in my life, I never understood the depth of His sacrifice more than after John Arnott’s teaching!!
One day I wonder how we will feel as we stand before God to give an account of the tearing down of our brothers and sisters in the Lord. So many of the great preachers and revivalists of their time were put down by the mainstream church and many saw signs and wonders manifesting.
Can I just ask if we could all pray more for our brothers and sisters and criticise less. God is a big God, so if we as believers pray for those in ministry big and small, surely God will prompt and transform or close ministries and maybe we should all be looking to obey God’s calling in our lives, no matter how crazy it might seem to the outside world. The fruit will eventually show!
I never heard of the kundalini spirit until a former chief intercessor at a church told me he thought there was an infiltration of this anti-Christ spirit at a major christian ministry in California. It was confirmation to me that there could be a counterfeit manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I have had personally Holy laughter 2 times in my life and it was incredible and nothing like the false mocking laughter I have discerned at times in meetings. I have found a correlation between an increase in false manifestations with false theology. That is why every Christian should have a strong understanding of basic Christian theology like was Jesus Fully God and Fully man when He died on the cross (I believe He was both) and is there an eternal hell ( I believe there is) .You would be shocked to find the number of supposed leaders that believe otherwise.
[…] The Kundalini Myth […]
Being joyful in the Lord has nothing whatsoever to do with the laughing in madness at Rodney H Brown meetings along with the barking and other lusty behaviors. The Holy Spirit touch is godly and beautifully, amazingly manifesting His presence to honour and worship God almighty and as well on the other hand to adore, respect, and cause us to tremble before the most High God. No the feathers are definitely not from the True One God who is but Holy. The diamonds and stones neither has to do with God at all. The angels flying around Beni Johnsson among others are nothing else but the demons that are deceiving people to believe its from Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit what is what and allow Gods spirit to discern things for you and me. The answer and the judgement will be given in honour and reverence to God alone. Deceit is manifesting itself in these last days to fool whosoever who are not on his guard. Pray and seek diligently at all times! Do not get itching ears and be fooled by deceitful men and women that never have enough of insanity and perversity. They will surely get what they want and are looking for alright. But thanks God that there are some who would be vigilant to reprove, warn and in order to try to rescue others with fear and through the love that is in Christ. Despite the risk that they might have stoned thrown at them for caring. But the love of God is greater than the fear for men. Amen!
you’re a complete idiot for seeing past God’s real truth that the kundalini movement is a cult.
Truly spoken in a spirit of love
Kundalini and the act of Shaktipat are being peformed by Heidi Baker, Todd Bentley and Bill Johnson and everyone at Bethel Redding. There are many other Pentecostal movement churches practicing this. All those Kriya jerks, head shaking and exclaiming “woah!” are all to do with the serpent spirit known as Kundalini.
Anyone who believes all these things are normal and are godly are sorely deceived. The spirit of antichrist is in the world yet people deny that and say that Kundalini isn’t antichrist because they are full of darkness and love satan more than they do Jesus.
It astounds me that people think that how Heidi Baker acts is normal. All those people acting drunk in the spirit are not godly. They are drunk with demonic delusion.
Even satans ministers appear as angels of light.
Don’t be deceived!!!!
Come out of her!!! Do not partake of her evil spirits!!
On both sides of the arguments there is a certain lack of understanding when it comes to discerning how pentecost works.
Discernment is what you get when you see that the word and spirit are one.
Its a leadership trait that reflects the ability to see truth in situations where confusion reigns.
This can be seen where Solomon deals with the two women argue before him.
The word will also see it where it says that the princes gaze dissipates evil.
So, having said that, I hope it will when it comes to dealing with doctrinal issues this approach will help.
Come on guys… Instead of such a religious discussion, let’s just go to the Scriptures! That is the beginning and end of all. Do we see this manifestations in the Scriptures? The answer is yes. What happened? Demons were being casted out.
Do we ever see Jesus or his disciples manifesting in such a way? No.
Does Paul ever mentions anything like it in his epistles? No.
Do prophecies appear in the Bible with a level of infalibility? No, that happens only in Vatican where the Pope’s word is taken as God’s word.
So biblically spoken, these arguments are invalid.
Are we to judge spiritual or supernatural experiences to be biblical just because they feel good and are done in Jesus name? Shouldn’t we be better busy healing the sick, casting out demons, bringing people to repentance, and making disciples?
Let’s not fall in traps of the devil making unending discussions. God is good, to Him be all glory.
Blessings, discernment and wisdom to all of you!
There are NO places that good female angels exist in the scripture. Eve was the first female. created. The only place female angels appear in Scripture is in Jeremiah and they are evil and they have wings.
Female angels with wings appear in occultism, and many are spirit guides.. Most angels, not all who appear to people appear in human form.
Just research hindu and occult practices. Bethal church people are laying on graves of saints channeling them. Seriously? If you have the Holy Spirit why are you channeling dead Christians?! People read Acts.
We are to discern good and evil. Rightfully dividing the word of truth. We are to get off milk and onto meat!
Kundalini awakening is a bioelectric response they can occur from spinal trama (nervous systen damage) triggering psychosis. Hindus being idolaters are involved with demonic worship; a Shakti Pat practitioner likely does have demons. The Hindu guru being exposed to demons and demonic doctrines confuses sensual experience (like Kundalini) as a divine experience equating it as the Holy Spirit. (Such of course is blasphemous Satanic teaching from demons) Jude does mention those whom are sensual having not the True Spirit of God. One need not to travel to India for a Kundalini experience as there a many Yoga centers here in the U.S. as part of the New Age movement. Andrew Strom does have a point and some involved in New Age occult do sneak in churches to attack Christians unsuspectingly whom they hate. A Kundalini (accessing the nervous system) to produce false visions is sorcery and witchcraft it is also damaging to the nervous system especially if done to the unsuspecting. Kundalini is dangerous even a Hindu guru practitioner will tell you (especially unsuspecting). Charismatics need to be caught not so caught up in sensual experiences but recognize the problem. Also Martial Arts also teaches to access Chi energies similar to Kundalini. Again it is really accessing nervous system bioelectric energy in the human body. Some are confusing sensual attacks from occultists (which have demons motivating them) hidden in their churches with manifestatios of the Holy Spirit. That is BIG problem! These people do lack discernment and should know the proper function of the Holy Spirit. Yes the spirit does give spiritual gifts but Holy Spirit also convicts of sin not give feel good sensual experiences. The Holy Spirit produces a sound mind as well as spiritual fruit not sensual fruit. Bethel is loaded with New Age teachings. Sensuality association of Kundalini is a work of the flesh; in fact it is used in Hindu Tantric sex as well. It is dangerous and for leaders of these churches like this to not recognize is a problem.
I know a lady who manifests gold dust, very tiny very shiny particles on her skin skin everyday. They are noticeable on day light. She is a christian, Catholic who received the spiritual awakening two months ago. I see it everyday on her and I believe it’s a miracle from God. There are plenty of people with the same manifestation exactly like the shekina miracle. Some people are faking it but some of the genuine ones don’t even know they have it. My advice to you: it’s better not to criticise something just because we don’t understand it, lest we commit the unforgivable sin. Be blessed.
[…] The Kundalini Myth […]
The comments on this thread are so interesting … how varied people’s perspectives are … and how convinced everyone is about his own opinion. Just goes to show how “looking through a glass darkly” we all are, to some degree or another. We are all still finding our way, and interpreting scripture as best we can. No one is fully correct, and no one is fully incorrect.
Some manifestations do seem odd, and a distraction from what the main thing should be. Others don’t seem so odd … even similar to scripture. But at the same time … be very careful in judging another man’s experience – you don’t know what he’s been through, or what he is experiencing, or why he’s experiencing it. Because as soon as you do judge it and dismiss it as false … you may have put God in a box … a box that He will someday jump out of and show you to be wrong.
All I know is this – and THIS IS THE MAIN THING:
Jesus NEVER denied anyone who asked for healing or deliverance. He “healed them all” and stated that He only did what the Father told Him to do (which must mean it’s ALWAYS God’s will to heal). The only people Jesus denied miracles to were those in His own hometown … those who could NOT BELIEVE in His miracles)
In other words, UNBELIEF produces nothing in the supernatural.
Then Jesus went on to send His own disciples out to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons, just as He was doing.
He later told us that we would do even GREATER things than He has done, if we only trust in Him! (John 14)
After His resurrection, He also told us that all authority was now given unto Him, and He then handed this authority to us … to operate in His Name and Authority, and told us to go make disciples, baptizing them.
The Word says that “Signs will follow those who believe.” (Mark 16)
It also says that “Signs are for the Unbeliever” (1 Cor 14) … meaning, signs (specifically tongues) are what will lure an unbeliever into the faith!
Miracles (healings, raising the dead, deliverance) are the very things that proved Jesus was fully God (while also being fully man). Had Jesus declared Himself to be God’s chosen messiah (which He in essence did … especially in the Gospel of John) … but then chose not to PROVE IT to the skeptical, religious, traditional Jewish society He lived in …. why on earth would anyone have believed Him??
I probably wouldn’t have believed Him either – no matter how great his teachings were.
In other words … Jesus was believed in by many people not in SPITE of His miracles, but BECAUSE of His miracles. He backed up His claims of Divinity with supernatural Proof!
Then He turned around and told US (his disciples) to do the very same thing!
Why? So we could show off? Or play around with fire? Or do it to entertain ourselves in church services?
NO! So we could win the “unwinnable” people to Christ! Signs are for the UNBELIEVER … so he will witness the supernatural and come to BELIEVE! It’s all about ultimately leading men to Christ. It always has been. But miracles also happen to deliver God’s precious Agape Love in the form of healings and breaking people free from personal bondages.
Miracles are a manifestation of God’s purest compassion to those who are suffering!
While Believers are arguing over whether tongues or healing is of God … many Christians have that settled, and already know that WE are just as much His disciples as the Biblical disciples were 2000 years ago! Doing the same things they did.
And as a result, many today are actually doing what Jesus did! They are walking in boldness in being the hands and feet of Christ.
Jesus actually brought Heaven to earth! (He brought healing and deliverance to a sick and broken people). We are to do the same, as Ambassadors for Christ … as these miracles glorify God, but MOST importantly … they draw the unbeliever to CHRIST (which again, is the ultimate goal).
Signs are to follow those of us who believe (Mark 16) … it is clearly stated in God’s word, and it was clearly LIVED out by the very One (Jesus) we are supposed to be emulating! The One we worship, the One we adore! In that regard, it really can’t be any plainer than that.
The Lord’s prayer states: “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”. This is a prayer Jesus taught His disciples (including us) to pray.
I ask you: Is there any sickness in Heaven? NO. Are there any demons in Heaven? NO. Is there any death in Heaven? NO.
Then if we are praying God’s Will, it includes healing, deliverance and raising the dead … because THAT is what heaven looks like.
Jesus said “The Kingdom of heaven is at hand”, and told his disciples to say the same as they traveled and administered miracles! (Mat 10)
This statement wasn’t just a poetic display. Jesus was being literal!
Christ was literally manifesting Heaven into earth, or heaven’s very nature into earth … by administering healing and deliverance. And we are told to do the exact same thing!
As far as shakings, barkings, meowings … I don’t know. Some of it seems weird and a distraction, perhaps for distraction’s sake. But some manifestations are indeed very real, and have legitimate explanations and Godly purposes … AND even resemble certain events from God’s word. I could tell stories about Godly manifestations that had life changing purpose, but I won’t write any more here … not enough time OR room to do so.
To all my Christian friends: Just be careful not to judge too harshly. Discern, for sure … but be open minded at the same time to the fact that God CAN do things that aren’t written verbatim in His word, and Not contradict His word at the same time.
He can do NEW things as well. He won’t go against His word, but He is also not bound to doing things only a certain way.. His Spirit is an organic, flexible, freeing Spirit that ministers liberty to captives … in whatever form that takes. He is about LOVE, PEACE, and JOY … that fruit of the spirit that is the TRUE testing ground of Christianity that Micael so rightly spoke of (Matthew 7).
I encourage you, brothers and sisters in Christ:
DO the same work of the ministry that Jesus and His disciples did! It’s all written there in black and white, and we are commanded to do the same! (Signs and wonders accompanied Jesus and His followers for the sake of proving the Gospel! (and also out of PURE LOVE for people … relieving them of their sickness and bondages. All of it had a very focused purpose (helping people, and bringing them to Christ) … and it wasn’t for entertainment or show, nor was it a distraction.
That said … I believe some manifestations are indeed very real, and some are of the flesh. It’s hard to discern sometimes, no matter how hard we try to get it right. But again, let’s be careful about it, and keep grace toward one another … but at the same time do the work of the ministry … bringing Heaven to earth, as our Lord did, and then commanded us to do.
In so doing, God will be glorified.
Yes… Jesus said thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven… but does that mean earth is supposed to replicate heaven? So no more day and night, no more marriage for example…
Or might Jesus have meant what he actually said? Namely that we pray for God’s will to be done on earth in the same way it is done in heaven: without hesitation, argument or refusal, What would happen in our churches if we did God’s will without hesitation, argument or refusal?
I had spent several years caught up in the New Age Movement and practicing Hinduism before I got attacked by demons and eventually saved by Jesus. Anyhow, I am well aware of the Kundalini spirit and the symptoms of being oppressed by this spirit because this is one of the very spirits that Jesus delivered me from.
I was church shopping and I visited an event at a local Pentecostal Church before researching the very biblical principles that this church believed in.
I thought I was immune to being deceived by the Kundalini spirit but I am very certain that that’s what spirit was operating in this church.
There was an intense energy in the room, people were screaming and singing the praises of Jesus and I quite enjoyed the fellowship and intensity of worship; it gave me abit of a high.
The Pastor who was a guest speaker started speaking and he spoke about Gods miracles and how God uses him as a vessel to prophesize and heal people. The Pastor started prophesizing for random people in the room. He laid hands on one woman and she fainted, fell backwards and started squirming on the floor. My alarm bells started going off. He claimed that God cured this woman of arthritis and several other issues. He prophesized over another woman in the crowd who he claimed would receive several financial blessings from the Lord. Then, out of all the people in the room, he chose ME. He told me that something in my past changed my personality , that I was not a bad person (hmmmm?!) and that God would restore my personality (I thought I was supposed to die for myself). He then told me that God was going to use me to heal people in the future. He laid his hands on me but thank goodness, I felt nothing and I did not fall backwards. Perhaps the holy spirit was protecting me?!
Anyways, people were speaking in tongues, all around the room and the energy was quite intense. The Pastor promised that everyone in the room would be anointed this evening and filled with the holy spirit. He focused a lot on miracles and supernatural experiences. I left the church feeling quite positive and high and the discernment did not kick in until the next day. I felt very certain that the prophesizing was not of God but of another spirit. I do believe in the gift of prophesy but I believe that God blesses servants with this gift for a very specific purpose; usually to warn others. I don’t believe that these frivolous, flowery prophetic messages were of God. It seemed over the top.
I found out, after researching the Pentecostal Church that they believe speaking in tongues is a prerequisite to being saved and I don’t believe this is biblical. I also found out that they believe that one must be baptized by water immersion in Jesus name only, not by the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Pentecostal Faith believes in revival but the bible talks about a falling away. They also believe in Pre Trib Rapture and I believe in Mid or Post Tribulations Rapture. Also, in the Pentecostal Church, they encourage everyone to rely on the Pastor to feed them information and not question the Pastor. They believe that Pentecostal Faith is the ultimate truth and following all other denominations will lead you to hell. The Baptist Church is more in alignment with my beliefs I honestly don’t think that I can return to this Church in good faith. I feel as though something demonic was operating in that room. If feels as though the Pastor was whipping people into an emotional frenzy and this energy is very attractive to demons. That counterfeit high that I felt really sucked me in but I know that the Holy Spirit is very different; it’s a calming, sane and grounding energy. Does anyone else relate to this experience? We must use so much discernment when finding a Church and not base our decision on feelings or spiritual experiences but make our choices solely on Biblical truth. I also feel that God wants us to lean on him, read his word and trust him solely. I think that relying on miracles, signs and wonders to build your faith is dangerous and entails a lack of faith more then anything.
I know I am coming a few years late here to this discussion, but regardless the Lord has led me and here and I feel something must be said.
“The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lordʼs people.”
1 Corinthians 14:32-33 NIV
Our Father, is not the God of disorder, but Peace. Thus he has given us a Spirit of HIS Peace which is subject to our control, so as not to create chaos.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
The fruits of the Spirit. Convulsions, babbling, shouting etc. such things are chaotic, they do not mesh with gentleness and self control. They do not fall under love joy or peace. They provide no forebearance, no goodness unto someone else. In fact they do not glorify Christ, but rather completely draw the attention to ourselves.
“Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
Matthew 7:20 NIV
Parts of the Charismatic Movement are so utterly in direct conflict with Galatians 5, that we have no choice but to recognize the fruit that they are truly producing. Lack of self control and promotion of self rather than Christ comes from the enemy.
Look, I’m not coming to you as an outsider, with no real experience with spiritual things, but as someone who has seen and experienced both the spirit of falsehood and the spirit of truth.
I’ve been filled with the bouts of uncontrollable laughter and that’s exactly what it is, the spirit being passed exerts it’s own control.
I’ve since that time been filled with the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, the authentic experience. I am in no way against a “charismatic” approach, because my own experience has been one of a supernatural God who truly does work miracles, the laying on of hands is real. Prophecy is real. Tongues happen in the right circumstance, but their is a level of self control that is always maintained when we are truly encountering the Spirit of our Lord. I don’t need to go to the front of church and have the pastor shout and lay hands on me every Sunday morning, the laying on of hands occurred once and the Spirit entered my life for good.
I have seen demons being cast out, during my time in Africa and I have seen the manifestations these demons produce, the shaking the convulsions the complete loss of control. When the demon was cast out they don’t need to shout from the roof tops for every one to turn and see what they have done for Jesus. You can feel what was done, the weight has been lifted, the spirit inside of you exclaims with Joy to the Glory of Jesus Christ. Nothing needs to be said.
The spiritual forces of darkness are going to do what they do. That is lie to create deception. The church has been invaded, and it’s not by Hindu teaching, it’s by a spirit of false hood.
“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Matthew 7:22-23 NIV
Not every man who claims Jesus is Lord truly knows him and serves him the way he desires.
“and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NIV
Are you that silly? The Bible had a lot to say about false teachers, false doctrines, and deception within the Church. Since when were demons subject to human rules, they’re not.
All I’m going to say is, the mere fact, that historically, in Christianity, if any of this stuff was seen it was pagan, that’s andrew Strom’s point, to think you need to go to India and get an impartation from a guru is silly, demons don’t need a guru to decieve ppl. If there was more critics in charismaticism, we wouldn’t have all these insanely unbiblical practices, and yes, if you are convulsing, you are not under the spirit. I have been on both sides of these experiences the pagan version and the ‘spirit’ version, they are one and the same, 100% demonic.
I have spent 9yrs escaping these lies with nothing but bible reading daily through the bible every year, individual book studies, Christian history studies, and studies on proper exegesis and hermeneutics, all of which are surely lacking in these circles because they they scriptures out of context to shut dissenters up. If you cannot handle debate, it’s likely you’re wrong. Better to assume that and let God’s change you anyway.
This is one of the most uneducated, ignorant, misinformed articles that I have ever read. Bill Johnson and his followers practice “grave sucking.” They literally prostrate themselves over the graves of dead men in an attempt to absorb the anointing of that deceased man. They also have a conference that does “tatoo readings”.
Bill Johnson himself says that feathers and gold fall from above during their worship services. What do you think that is a manifestation of? It is the manifestation of a demonic spirit because Bill Johnson teaches new age meditation and mixes it with Christianity. Where is my proof? Go watch an interview with Bill Johnson. They are breading the next generation of heretics.
While at college in Lakeland Florida a professor took a few of us to the Brownsville revival. Quite distracting was a girl in the choir who had this peculiar head jerking movement. That went on for hours. We were told that this was a manifestation of the Holy spirit.. Now this girl was wearing a neck brace, which made me question this manifestation. I reasoned that if it was the Holy Spirit, why would she need a neck brace, and why would the Holy Spirit cause such a distraction throughout the 5 hour service. There can only be one responce to this and that it was not of the Holy Spirit. Of recently I viewed the video that showed people with the same head jerking manifestation at a Hindu service, in which the release of the kundalini produced severe head jerking, uncontrollable laughter and crying, and falling to the ground. I suggest that you take another look at Strom’s book.
Heidi Baker and the people of Bethel Redding are going to go up in a pillar of fire when Jesus returns. They will all be thrown into the abyss for their false teachings, demonic impartation and supernatural lies. The fact they preach you can take your spirit on “visits” to Heaven is pure evil and lies. The fact they believe you can teach prophecy is false teachings. They believe the Bible is a tool, but not the ultimate truth and you’ll find Bethel place the writings of Bill Johnson OVER the Bible, which is insanity.
For those of you have come out of such places / movements, was wondering where you fellowship now? Any recommendations regarding churches or fellowship groups in each of these places: Toronto, Bethel, Kansas??? Thank you!
Sorry, I mean Toronto, Redding, Kansas
Wow you really mangled the scriptures